26-06-2003 21:45									#1
	What to do with a trillion workers? Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

In my current game(Ottomans) the game flows pretty slowly. Jungles prevented early contact and I wasnt tech whoring enough, so it's ~1400AD now and the advanced civs are researching Physics and Democracy...

Since the game is long, civs had plenty of time to build workers, and I warred a lot.

At this point, I have ~15 of my own workers and countless Indian, Scandinavian and Persian ones.

I dont want to kill them because it's wasteful, and I cant incorporate them into my empire since most of my cities are already at size 12.

I roaded every possible mountain tile and cleaned every jungle in my territory, and I just invaded the Persians against just to grab more jungle territory and have someplace to the send the workers to.

So what do you do with all the extra workers?

	26-06-2003 21:56									#2
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If you have that many captured workers and nothing to do with them, I'd consider disbanding your own workers to save gpt. Then just fortify your captured workers in various towns. Once you get to steam power then break 'em all out again and voila...instant railroad network (assuming you have coal in your city radii). Since the Ottomans are industrious your captured workers will still work quickly enough.

	26-06-2003 21:57									#3
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own workers work quicker than captured ones... just fortify them ad wait for railroad, as I do it

without early contact the AI usually outtechs me, why is it they suck so much in your game?

	26-06-2003 22:07									#4
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I usually keep the "captives" from civs that have been eliminated from the game as a cryogenic workforce (thaw when tiles become polluted). All of the captured workers from existent civs are then emancipated and sold/given back to that civ.

I feel so Republican when I do that.

	26-06-2003 22:47									#5
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Disband your workers and save the maint. So what if they work faster, just use twice as many slaves and come out at the same point with 1 gpt per worker saved. Join your workers to a city if that works else disband in a city that is building something for the 2 shields.
In games where I have a lot of workers slaves and get to the point that I have little work for them, I just fort them up in stack around the empire. I do not put them in the city as it is a pain to get them out and to move them to one focal point city. They are easy to spot sitting on the map in plain sight. I tend to put them into stacks of 8 as that will clear pollution in one turn. Later after replacememnt parts, you can often do it faster, but I hold them together for mountain squares. The size can be any that works for you.

	26-06-2003 22:48									#6
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I'd wait until after you've finished railroading all your land and then get rid of your own workers. I like to keep my workers around while railroading because they work faster. But afterwords, join your workers into cities and keep slaves for the eventual pollution and you should be good to go.

BigD

	26-06-2003 22:49									#7
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With a glut of foreign workers, there is no need to pay to keep any of your native workers. Yes, your workers are twice as efficient as foreign labor but with such an surplus you really don't need the speed of your native workers.

	26-06-2003 23:06									#8
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quote: Originally posted by BigDork I'd wait until after you've finished railroading all your land and then get rid of your own workers. I like to keep my workers around while railroading because they work faster. But afterwords, join your workers into cities and keep slaves for the eventual pollution and you should be good to go. BigD

See my post above and stop holding those workers IF you have enough slaves. That is the key, if you have enough slaves to handle the work quickly.
Those 15 workers he mentioned cost 15 gpt, that is better used else where. No work is going undone without the native workers. No work willbe completed sooner.

	26-06-2003 23:09									#9
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hi ,

build airfields , watchtowers , sell them to nations , .....

this a great deal to make nations agry at each other , .....

let them join cities , aldo slowly , one , max two foreign ones in a size twelve city , .....

have a nice day

	26-06-2003 23:59									#10
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pang, he does not have Steam yet, so I doubt he can make airfields and watch towers.
Selling to others is an option, but I am not fond of letting them have workers as that may help them and depending on the level, they may not have money.
He said all cities were at size 12 already (probably not strickly correct).
Those are things to consider though. The bottom line to me is they do not cost me anything.

	27-06-2003 00:03									#11
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 pang, he does not have Steam yet, so I doubt he can make airfields and watch towers. Selling to others is an option, but I am not fond of letting them have workers as that may help them and depending on the level, they may not have money. He said all cities were at size 12 already (probably not strickly correct). Those are things to consider though. The bottom line to me is they do not cost me anything.

hi ,

he can find new cities , and as for the rest , he can stack them till he needs them , ..... you dont need steam for watch towers , ......

and other use ; plant forests on plains and tundra , ..... and all other places where you like it , you need loads of workers for that , .....

have a great day

	27-06-2003 00:47									#12
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Hold them for RR, but don't fortify them in a city (unless they're in danger, of course). Go ahead and get four slaves (if you're in Dem) positioned on each square of your initial RR line, as far as you can make it stretch. Boom, one turn RR line connecting every city (assuming you have enough). If you aren't desperate for gold, I'd hold onto a dozen of those wonderful native industrious workers, if not all 15, and line them up around Istanbul, two per square, for RR purposes.

Also, go through and check all your size 12 cities, then minimize excess food by mining, thereby maximizing production before you get Sanitation and will want to re-irrigate some of those tiles. Once you start building RR's, do this again to account for RR in irrigated squares, and (IMO) beeline for Rep Parts, effectively doubling your workforce when you get it. Only after RP and San would I look at getting rid of my native workers, and then I'd give an instant boost to my powerhouse cities (as some wise poster said, more pop = more of everything). It may also be feasible to go ahead and disband those workers, then spend 15 turns production right before getting SP to build them back (obviously from your size 12 cities with full foodboxes). You'll end up with the same number of workers when you need them, but will save the maintenance costs until then.

Depending on your empire size, I wouldn't get too worked up about grabbing more jungle to clear, unless you're afraid of getting shut out on coal or rubber.

Panag brings up something that slipped my mind, too. Go ahead and forest all your tundra tiles, and every plain and grassland tile that isn't in a city radius (never too early to get a jump on global warming, if we ever did determine that trees help slow GW ).

	27-06-2003 00:54									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi Hold them for RR, but don't fortify them in a city (unless they're in danger, of course). Go ahead and get four slaves (if you're in Dem) positioned on each square of your initial RR line, as far as you can make it stretch. Boom, one turn RR line connecting every city (assuming you have enough). If you aren't desperate for gold, I'd hold onto a dozen of those wonderful native industrious workers, if not all 15, and line them up around Istanbul, two per square, for RR purposes. Also, go through and check all your size 12 cities, then minimize excess food by mining, thereby maximizing production before you get Sanitation and will want to re-irrigate some of those tiles. Once you start building RR's, do this again to account for RR in irrigated squares, and (IMO) beeline for Rep Parts, effectively doubling your workforce when you get it. Only after RP and San would I look at getting rid of my native workers, and then I'd give an instant boost to my powerhouse cities (as some wise poster said, more pop = more of everything). It may also be feasible to go ahead and disband those workers, then spend 15 turns production right before getting SP to build them back (obviously from your size 12 cities with full foodboxes). You'll end up with the same number of workers when you need them, but will save the maintenance costs until then. Depending on your empire size, I wouldn't get too worked up about grabbing more jungle to clear, unless you're afraid of getting shut out on coal or rubber. Panag brings up something that slipped my mind, too. Go ahead and forest all your tundra tiles, and every plain and grassland tile that isn't in a city radius (never too early to get a jump on global warming, if we ever did determine that trees help slow GW ).

hi ,

planting forest does slow down global warming , ........

plains that have a forest on them cant change to desert at ones , the terrain shall change due to GBW in plains again , you see a small message , you can go back and plant it again , ......

not to mention that a forest slows down enemy movements , ......

have a nice day

	27-06-2003 01:21									#14
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quote: plains that have a forest on them cant change to desert at ones , the terrain shall change due to GBW in plains again , you see a small message , you can go back and plant it again , ......

Good point, don't know why I never looked at it that way. I've been thinking of the issue as whether or not forests slow down the occurence of global warming, rather than the effects. Of course, that answers my other question of whether jungles slow it down, too.

	27-06-2003 01:32									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi Good point, don't know why I never looked at it that way. I've been thinking of the issue as whether or not forests slow down the occurence of global warming, rather than the effects. Of course, that answers my other question of whether jungles slow it down, too.

hi ,

it does , the jungle goes first and becomes grass , ......

have a nice day

	27-06-2003 02:05									#16
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Not sure why I should presume that when they say they have all work done that they did not include forresting tunda tiles.
Anyway Radar Towers require Radio, Airfileds require FLight.
RR require Steam, and he says he is working on Demo and Physics. Not even in the correct age.
Radio is not in sight, maybe Steam is not far away, hard to say.
Does not matter to me, if I have scores of workers 50-100 (he says trillions), I do not need 15 natives doing nothing for quite some time. I may as well save the cash.
When RR get researched, I will have plenty of workers to get the RR in place in a reasonable amount of time.
That is all I am saying. Keep them if you like, but there is no good reason to do so under the circumstances given.

	27-06-2003 02:14									#17
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Not sure why I should presume that when they say they have all work done that they did not include forresting tunda tiles. Anyway Radar Towers require Radio, Airfileds require FLight. RR require Steam, and he says he is working on Demo and Physics. Not even in the correct age. Radio is not in sight, maybe Steam is not far away, hard to say. Does not matter to me, if I have scores of workers 50-100 (he says trillions), I do not need 15 natives doing nothing for quite some time. I may as well save the cash. When RR get researched, I will have plenty of workers to get the RR in place in a reasonable amount of time. That is all I am saying. Keep them if you like, but there is no good reason to do so under the circumstances given.

hi ,

a captured worker costs you nothing , .....

thats why they work so slow , ...

and thats why you can leave them standing on the side to build whatever you want with them , ......

and you can build outposts with them right after masonry , .....

have a nice day

	27-06-2003 02:15									#18
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You're right, mathematically. The only reason I keep natives around is I'm addicted to the indutrious worker, especially under Demo and with RP. And even then, in his situation, assuming all forestry work is done, I'd disband (or add to smaller cities where possible) those 15, then build them back right before SP in most cases. There are times, however, that those 15 or so turns of production later on are something I'd rather not give up, and when SP gets researched, I'm going to want every possible worker I can put on the railroad, including as many natives as I can put in the field.

	27-06-2003 03:25									#19
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I never waste time making outpost, but that just me.
I give up. The speed of the native is of no import if you have as many slaves as we are talkinig about, period.
Two slaves = 1 native and cost nothing.
A twice as fast native idles at the same speed a slave does. That is to say, if you have nothing for either to do, it does not matter how fast one is.
If you have a task that can be done by a native in 3 turns, that task can be done in the same three turns by 6 slaves and for free, no up keep.
If you have scores of slaves, you do not need to pay upkeep for natives while you wait for SP. You do not need the RR up in one turn.
In the end it does not matter much, it is a small edge.

	27-06-2003 03:43									#20
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Vmxa1 is right. It's a small edge, but that 15gpt might be the difference in trading for a luxury that would allow you to tone down the luxury slider one spot and bring in more science. If you have a huge horde of free workers like the example given, there is no point in paying one worker to do what two free ones can do.

	27-06-2003 04:16									#21
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As I said, yes, mathematically he's right. Hence my disclaimer originally of if he's not hurting for gold. I'm just hooked on clicking once and seeing that railroad go down immediately, or mine, irrigation, etc. If I'm in this guy's situation and have 15 gpt to spare, I'm keeping my native workers. If I need it for a lux, one more increment of science spending, or anything else, they're the first ones on the chopping block.

quote: If you have scores of slaves, you do not need to pay upkeep for natives while you wait for SP.

As I said, the only case for this is if I don't want to spend the time to rebuild them right before SP.

quote: You do not need the RR up in one turn.

Case by case here. I've had games where I'm right in the midst of war, and could have really used that newly produced Inf in a border city the next turn, rather than 2 or 3 turns down the road because of an incomplete RR line. I've never run across it, but could also see a case where getting the production boost to shave, say, Bach's from 2 turns to 1 gets you to it just before the AI. Once the cities are connected and powerhouses are railed, my natives go away again, leaving the slaves to finish the web at no cost. But for the real "necessary" phase of the railroad, I've never had enough slaves to do it in one turn, so I make sure I have as many natives as I can field with them until it's done. Consider railroads as a city improvement, as far as cost, and it's no different than rushing that temple, factory, etc. You may not need it this turn, but it furthers your empire to go ahead and get it this turn if, and this is key, you can afford it.

If the 15 gpt is keeping you from getting a lux, it would be asinine to keep the workers around. Perhaps it would help with the "every worker I can get" part to add that I always play huge maps, usually with 8 civs, so I always have a lot of territory to RR, as you saw in the .sav on the other forum (problem solved and thanks for all the help, btw).

Along another line, I used to use captured workers for colonies, airfields, etc. (though like you, I never build outposts, and really never build radar towers, either) until I slapped my forehead and realized that it was better to use the renewable native workers for that.

	27-06-2003 04:23									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Rhothaerill Vmxa1 is right. It's a small edge, but that 15gpt might be the difference in trading for a luxury that would allow you to tone down the luxury slider one spot and bring in more science. If you have a huge horde of free workers like the example given, there is no point in paying one worker to do what two free ones can do.

hi ,

agreed but , they need twice as much moving and when in war or for whatever other reasons it could be handy to keep a couple of your own just to speed things up , .....

actually ones you are in a democracy or republic it aint that bad , .....

have a nice day

	27-06-2003 04:45									#23
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quote: Originally posted by panag not to mention that a forest slows down enemy movements , ......

The AI is so stupid I prefer to fight them on open ground rather than on forests, it always seems to me the RNG is more of a help to them than whoever their strategic mastermind is

	27-06-2003 04:48									#24
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vmxa1 raises some good points on why to keep mostly slave workers, on the other hand, I value quick improving too much that I would much rather have native workers doing the burden. During the middle ages and later I usually try being a tech whorer, which means I usually end up racking big amounts of cash and losing 20gpt for those native workers I think is worth it, especially once you turn into a Democracy... let alone when you get Replaceable Parts.

Industrial native workers, with democracy and replaceable parts... it's a sight to see...

(again, just my personal preference)

	27-06-2003 05:24									#25
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I guess i am slow, because people keep saying they want to not wait and that is why they keep natives.
What wait are they talking about?
Need a road, if 2 natvis do it in one turn, 4 slaves will as well. Where is the wait? Moving them is the same effort as natives. You use J to move the stack, if it is 2 natives or 4 slaves.
I will buy any reason you want for keeping them except the speed factor. Remember we are talking about basically an unlimited number of slaves in this scenario.
We are not talking about 20 slaves and 15 natives, in that case I keep mine. We are talking about massive numbers of slaves, no good reason to keep natives, unless SP is just around the corner and it is not in this case.

	27-06-2003 06:26									#26
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If you are going to be at war during the pre-tank days using massed artillery, infantry for cover and cav for storming reduced cities, captured workers come in handy. The preferred method for running such a campaign is to place towns one tile into enemy land in such a place as to be able to bombard two enemy cities. This takes lots of settlers. Since those "staging" towns are size one, you can add a couple of captured workers to the town and then rush a settler which then can be used for the next hop. Captured workers are useful for building the railroad connections you need for this type of campaign.

Captured workers can be used to eliminate "fog of war" tiles in areas you don't care to use for towns. Barb encampments won't pop up outside the fog.

You can line your shores with workers and eliminate the possibility of the AI invading. Also, AI naval bombardment won't destroy terrain improvements if you have workers on the tiles.

	27-06-2003 09:37									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen The AI is so stupid I prefer to fight them on open ground rather than on forests, it always seems to me the RNG is more of a help to them than whoever their strategic mastermind is

hi ,

sure , wait till you see it being used in MP games , ......

have a nice day

	27-06-2003 09:40									#28
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Not to be nasty, but to bring up MP in an SP discussion here seems pointless.
I mean of course what works in SP is not always the going to work in MP.

	27-06-2003 09:42									#29
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Not to be nasty, but to bring up MP in an SP discussion here seems pointless. I mean of course what works in SP is not always the going to work in MP.

hi ,

a forest slow the enemy down in both SP and MP , .....

have a nice day

	27-06-2003 09:43									#30
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , sure , wait till you see it being used in MP games , ...... have a nice day

In MP most people disband or gift their workers rather than let you capture them... it is highly unlikely you'll end up with a horde of slave workers.