27-06-2003 03:17									#61
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finally MtG restores order with relevant points!@

	27-06-2003 03:17									#62
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat So you think the Nation of Islam should have to hire whites and Jews? How about the local Jewish temple having to hire NOI members? How does the state have the right to compel such practices in organizations covered by the Establisment Clause? (hint, it cuts both ways). General religious discrimination is an entirely different issue from forcing religious organizations to hire those who do not share, or who may even actively oppose, their beliefs. Quota systems in AA are nothing but a lame bureaucratic excuse to cover for failing to address the underlying inequalities which lead to the disparities AA is allegedly intended to remedy.

On target and on topic!

for both

	27-06-2003 03:20									#63
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In response to MtG...

The religious organizations in question receive federal funds for education. Those private organizations you mentioned, can hire whoever they want. But if government tax dollars fund an organization, they should be subject to equal opprotunity regulation. For these organizations to be exempt, the government should stop giving them money.

	27-06-2003 03:30									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Sava if government tax dollars fund an organization, they should be subject to equal opprotunity regulation.

Why? If an organization is contributing to the greater good of society, why wouldn't you want your tax dollars supporting it?

	27-06-2003 03:33									#65
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quote: Why? If an organization is contributing to the greater good of society, why wouldn't you want your tax dollars supporting it?

If they can't follow the rules... tough sh1t!

	27-06-2003 03:36									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Sava But if government tax dollars fund an organization, they should be subject to equal opprotunity regulation. For these organizations to be exempt, the government should stop giving them money.

If the government is generally supporting their operation, yes. If the government is giving grant money related to participation in specific progams only, then the guiding criteria should be whether they fulfill the requirements of the program for which they are receiving grants.

If they manage to shelter and feed the homeless or teach little kids to read with equal or greater efficacy than other qualified programs, that should be the only issue.

	27-06-2003 03:38									#67
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Money is money... how it is spent is generally irrelevant. Either we have seperation of church and state, or we don't.

	27-06-2003 03:41									#68
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"money is money" does not apply in government. Both the nature of the funding mechanism, and the ways in which money can be used in a specific program, are subject to a lot of complex rules and different treatment.

Eligibility for participation in specific grants is an entirely different issue than ongoing receipt of general government funds or preferences.

You're whistling Dixie through the wrong orifice anyway, this is already in line with SCOTUS rulings.

	27-06-2003 03:50									#69
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quote: this is already in line with SCOTUS rulings.

So? The SCOTUS isn't some uber-moral entity. Slavery was legal and it took a war to get rid of it.

	27-06-2003 04:15									#70
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quote: The SCOTUS isn't some uber-moral entity.

It's an uber-legal entity though .

	27-06-2003 04:24									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Sava So? The SCOTUS isn't some uber-moral entity. Slavery was legal and it took a war to get rid of it.

Yes, slavery was legal. The law changed.

What you're *****ing about wrt head start program funding is legal. If you want to change the law, go ahead, but the constitutionality of the existing law has already been tested.

	27-06-2003 04:25									#72
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Sorry, I'm a silly idealist who thinks that the SCOTUS should uphold what is right, and not just what is written law.

	27-06-2003 04:31									#73
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I've only skimmed the first post, but I repeatedly refuted Sava's point about religious charities in the thread about it (so did MtG). The religious charities thing is not saying "you must discriminate", it's letting RELIGIOUS organizations hire based on RELIGION... imagine that! Duh. Or do you think a catholic church, for example, should have to have certain quota's of other religions...

EDIT: I see MtG has continued to make that point, using his Nation of Islam example... I like that one

Last edited by Kuciwalker on 27-06-2003 at 04:38

	27-06-2003 04:34									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Sorry, I'm a silly idealist who thinks that the SCOTUS should uphold what is right, and not just what is written law.

Yeah, that would be a rational system. Hey, people, let's get 280 million opinions on what's "right."

	27-06-2003 04:35									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Sorry, I'm a silly idealist who thinks that the SCOTUS should uphold what is right, and not just what is written law.

We're a nation of laws. Get over it.

	27-06-2003 04:38									#76
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Perfect governance, huh? As long as we're dreaming, I want a roast beef sandwich.

	27-06-2003 06:24									#77
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Sava -

quote: Most conservatives take the position that Affirmative Action is bad because it discriminates against white people.

Wrong, because the government should not discriminate against people based on race. It doesn't matter who the victim is...

quote: I posted a story not too long ago about a bill that would allow charitable organizations to discriminate based upon religion. Most conservatives support it.

Yup, that's called freedom of association. There is a difference between private discrimination, the kind you employ when choosing friends or services, and public discrimination, when government treats us differently based on race. You support public discrimination and apparently oppose private discrimination and accuse others of hypocrisy.

quote: This little observation of mine is in no way related to anyone on theses forums. I'm making a silly generalization.

Hmm...we do agree on something.

quote: So basically, I'm just bragging that I exposed hypocrisy.

Yes, post often so more Apolytoners can see your hypocrisy.

quote: My stance is simple. I think discrimination is bad.

No you don't, you just explained why you want the government to discriminate.

	27-06-2003 06:30									#78
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quote: if government tax dollars fund an organization, they should be subject to equal opprotunity regulation.

Voucher supporters, beware! Once federal vouchers are allowed, the fact the money goes to parents won't stop the left from attaching strings like this to whatever "organisation" ends up with the money.

	27-06-2003 06:50									#79
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quote: We're a nation of laws. Get over it.

We're also being led by an evil corrupt president who is supported by morally bankrupt criminals. Sorry, I'll get over it when they're rotting in a prison or hanging from the end of a rope.

	27-06-2003 06:56									#80
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Ok, when was a president NOT corrupt? We can't keep letting people rot and hang right after they are elected.

	27-06-2003 07:06									#81
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quote: Ok, when was a president NOT corrupt?

Good question, I don't know enough about presidents before Carter to have an accurate answer. I'm sure there are probably skeletons in everyone's closet. And my hatred is focused more on those whose agendas are detrimental to the overall health of America. Despite Clinton's pitfalls, I'd take him as president in a heartbeat over any Republican politician in the last 25 years. Does that mean I love Clinton? NO! He was just a lesser evil. Democracy is an illusion in this country. I'd like to think that this cancer has infected our political system, but it never was Democratic in the first place. I've heard the Civil War referred to as the Second American Revolution. And the New Deal Era and the progressive advances as the third. I feel there is a fourth hovering on the horizon nearby. One that gets rid of the corporate prositution, bi-partisan political shenanigans, and economic oppression.

I'm sure you guys are reading this saying, "This guys a ****ing whackjob." That may be the case. But I just describe myself as someone who was taught that America was the land of freedom, democracy, and civil rights for all; and is pissed off that I was lied to.

	27-06-2003 08:04									#82
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Correction: you're pissed off that you think you were lied to; and you piss others off when you accuse them of hypocrisy while blatantly exposing your own.

	27-06-2003 08:07									#83
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how am I a hypocrit again? I didn't pay attention to that accusation because it wasn't supported...

	27-06-2003 08:13									#84
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You are a hypocrite because you support discrimination by the government, which is EXPLICITLY unconstitutional, yet you oppose discrimination by private organizations, especially things like CHURCHES, because they receive SOME federal funding for their educational initiatives, which is (debatably) not unconstitutional.