26-06-2003 23:00									#1
	Conservative Hypocrisy... again... AA vs Charities Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I was thinking about these two stories (Affirmative Action and the whole charity discrimination thing). Most conservatives take the position that Affirmative Action is bad because it discriminates against white people. As if there are white people whose lives get ruined because they were passed up due to AA. OH PLEASE!!?! As a white person, you will get many other opprotunities. God forbid we attempt to even the playing field by giving minorities a chance. But alas, conservatives feel this is a great injustice.

I posted a story not too long ago about a bill that would allow charitable organizations to discriminate based upon religion. Most conservatives support it.

This little observation of mine is in no way related to anyone on theses forums. I'm making a silly generalization. But while watching all the talking head news commentary shows that I watch, I've seen these two discussions taking place with the more conservative person taking the forementioned stances on these respective issues.

So basically, I'm just bragging that I exposed hypocrisy.

My stance is simple. I think discrimination is bad. My solution to the problem of inequality wouldn't include affirmative action. But since people aren't willing to fix the problem at the root, I support affirmative action because, while discrimination based on race, white or black, is wrong... the inequality of opprotunity that African Americans face far outweighs the injustice done to white people in terms of AA. My solution would be to equalize the education system in America. But conservatives would be far more opposed to that than affirmative action.

As for the charity/education issue... discrimination is bad. And allowing discrimination in that case wouldn't have any advantages. In fact, by allowing it, these charities would be diluting their talent pool. There is no greater good in this case.

	26-06-2003 23:15									#2
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i don't like aa, and i'm not white or conservative.

	26-06-2003 23:18									#3
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quote: But since people aren't willing to fix the problem at the root, I support affirmative action because, while discrimination based on race, white or black, is wrong

Way to bend over and take it like a man

I agree the "conservatives" are shooting themselves in the foot with this one. Any time you base anything on race you open the door for segregation and racism... Maybe the "conservatives" feel that by basing charity on religion that they are washing their hands of the issue, and passing the race card over to the religions...?

	26-06-2003 23:21									#4
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quote: i don't like aa, and i'm not white or conservative.

do you support discrimination against religion?

don't make the mistake of thinking I'm saying everyone opposed to AA is white or conservative. I'm opposed to AA, but only support it because it's the least that we are able to do.

	26-06-2003 23:22									#5
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quote: My solution would be to equalize the education system in America. But conservatives would be far more opposed to that than affirmative action

Not True! I am conservative and opposed to discrimination based on race. I am definately FOR more equality in education and educational spending.

The discrimination in charities is not race based. These are two different arguments and thus not hypocritical to take oposing positions.

For example, I am against discrimination in University admissions based upon race, but I am not against discrimination based upon intellectual ability.

	26-06-2003 23:24									#6
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quote: do you support discrimination against religion?

no, not in the sense described above. bush's plan wasn't the best. if he were to open up public funding for faith-based initiatives, which i have no problem with, he should keep granting funds to secular establishments as well--including those that give support to things that go against the religious organizations (i.e., abortion, birth control).

quote: don't make the mistake of thinking I'm saying everyone opposed to AA is white or conservative.

it sounded like it at first. mea culpa.

	26-06-2003 23:25									#7
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quote: Affirmative Action is bad because it discriminates against white people.

So I don't count as "conservative?"

I argue that AA is bad because it hurts black people.

Please continue squashing the straw man. It's quite entertaining to see a huge bulldozer plowing through soft straw.

	26-06-2003 23:26									#8
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Sava, you don't know what you're talking about.

Seriously, I'm against affirmative action but I don't think there is one person on this forum who has is more for equalized education than I am. Whenever I have posted my views on the subject I've been considered incredibly extremist.

	26-06-2003 23:28									#9
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quote: equalized education

I think the key word is "equal"... It something that both sides of our government has decided to redefine to suit their own needs, and in the process have demolished the true meaning of the word...

	26-06-2003 23:30									#10
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Well, if AA is a necessary evil to compensate for past wrongs and the present difficulties of minorities, shouldn't our universities be giving "comes from a poor family" credits as well? People shouldn't be rewarded for their own crappy luck.
I don't think the religion question is as big as you make it out to be either. Ideological discrimination happens all the time, and not being able to get the low-income, no-benefits position of a charity worker doesn't look like a crippling blow to anyone anyway. In principle it's probably wrong, but how does it really affect anyone?

	26-06-2003 23:30									#11
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More thoughts popped into my head....

Are race and religion the same thing? According to you, does race even exist? Can one not simply lie about religion in a job interview? Can they do the same about their race? (Furthermore - can they if it "DOESN'T EXIST")?

You've basically exposed what a sap you are for mix and matching completely irrelevant topics. What the **** do your parents pay your tuition for?

	26-06-2003 23:39									#12
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quote: Well, if AA is a necessary evil to compensate for past wrongs and the present difficulties of minorities, shouldn't our universities be giving "comes from a poor family" credits as well?

I think so

Article in this thread here

Apocalypse: Is this going to be another "does race exist" thread?

Anyway, I am reminded of the dentist on Seinfeld who Jerry believes became a Jew so he could tell the jokes.

	26-06-2003 23:41									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Apocalypse: Is this going to be another "does race exist" thread?

I have no idea, but it isn't the point of my post.

	26-06-2003 23:44									#14
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Dear lord. I was joking. Dude, that's absurd. So you get accepted over a more qualified applicant because you have no money? WTF?

	26-06-2003 23:49									#15
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Fine.

Race and religion are not the same thing. Especially since someone can "convert" from one to the other at the drop of the hat. Some ppl will argue that race doesn't exist, that it is a social construct not worthy of attention. I believe that saying race is a social construct is a nice comment because promotes equality and ignores the defining lines between races. Yet, many people who uphold this idealology of eqaulity will turn around and demand benefits for equality in the form of AA to off-set all the years of oppression. They demand retribution. Should religions also demand such retribution? Heck, if it is being given out they might as well take it. That is what I say. Yet, as long as such policies are in place that ideology of equality will never be obtained.

	26-06-2003 23:56									#16
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quote: Dear lord. I was joking. Dude, that's absurd. So you get accepted over a more qualified applicant because you have no money? WTF?

No. I don't think any one less qualified should be passed up for someone more qualified, no matter what.

What I am trying to express is that using race as a criteria for entrance into an educational establishment is non-productive and in some cases counter-productive.

Yet, someone from a poor family is less likely to go to college for many more reasons than someone who is from a familly of a certain race. Financial instability leads to a lot more problems to the decision of going to school.

Also, being from a poor family one is less likely to have the opportunities or support awarded to them due to financial instability (i.e. work instead of study, having to live out of a car, etc.). Such people are more concerned about their survival than they are about their education. Yet, given such an opportunity may be just as likely to succeed as some one who is given an opportunity based souly on their race.

My point:

Admissions based on Race is less practical than admissions based on income.

	27-06-2003 00:01									#17
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quote: Not True! I am conservative and opposed to discrimination based on race. I am definately FOR more equality in education and educational spending.

Good I'm glad you belong to the group of conservatives with a conscience. I wish there were more like you.

quote: Seriously, I'm against affirmative action but I don't think there is one person on this forum who has is more for equalized education than I am.

Your silly little rant suggests you took my posts personally. I don't recall talking about you, to you, or at you, nor do I recall any of your political views. Deflate your ego bub. And learn how to insult properly. My little brother can do better than that.

	27-06-2003 00:02									#18
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quote: Admissions based on Race is less practical than admissions based on income.

Translation: "I want less black people and more poor whites to belong to the "elite" class.

	27-06-2003 00:05									#19
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Is that what you think Sava? I wonder what percentage of the poverish are white compared to other races? If racism is so rampant, and the white man is suprressing everyone else would it not accomplish the same thing as AA without having to play the race card?

	27-06-2003 00:07									#20
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quote: Translation: "I want less black people and more poor whites to belong to the "elite" class.

not quite. a rich black family living in the suburbs have children which tend to do better in school than a poor black family or a poor white family in the inner city.

thus, the rich black kid shouldn't get the ec-based aa, just as the rich white kid shouldn't. the poor kids ought to, because their education was most likely more deprived.

	27-06-2003 00:08									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Your silly little rant suggests you took my posts personally. I don't recall talking about you, to you, or at you, nor do I recall any of your political views. Deflate your ego bub. And learn how to insult properly. My little brother can do better than that.

I'm saying you are making a far too wide generalization and need to grow up. Whenever someone trys to point something else you always just reply with some immature personal attack. And yes, I know I attacked you personally too, but you weren't replying to that attack yet. The thing is, I wasn't trying to insult you in that post too. You are so in your own little perverse world that you fail to understand what people are trying to tell you.

	27-06-2003 00:27									#22
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Forget what I said earlier about not being sure. This from something I mainly got from another source....

Yep, it is a does race exist thread. So take a stand on which side you believe - and apply to the situation; because the logic of hypocrisy comes about only when you dismiss, or abandon commitment to your standard.

So Sava, characteristics currently available to discriminate against are learned qualities that you can actively change - religion, intelligence, drug use, hygiene. Other characteristics which can not be discriminated against because they are natural and can not be changed with conscious maintenance include sexual orientation, physical handicaps and - you guessed it!

But wait! Race is either....

A). A characteristic you are born wit and haven't a choice to change because it is a genetic make up
B). A completely false human notion that doesn't exist

Now after picking one of the above (or abstaining because you are void of argument) - remember that for B: something that does not exist can not logically be discriminated against. If the "flawed" characteristic in truth doesn't exist, laying blame on the flaw for rejection holds about as much merit as rejecting an applicant because of the invisible stick of cotton candy rammed up his/her ass. Did you pick A? Well guess what then - you can't descrimiate against that as you can religion, because it is a concrete quality - not a leaning that can be altered!

So which is it going to be, A or B - and how exactly do you follow up in lumping together two polarized classes of characteristics?

And Sava, I'm not taking anything personally. I want you to know this as a disclaimer. This is not personal to me. It has nothing to do with my ego. I have far more other things in my life that affect my ego. A message board that I'll soon be too busy to post on doesn't. So respond to this and don't try to attack my ego and be all immature again.

	27-06-2003 00:33									#23
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quote: Translation: "I want less black people and more poor whites to belong to the "elite" class.

tee hee this was a troll. hook line and sinker!

Apoc: Oh please, as I specified in the first post

quote: I'm making a silly generalization. But while watching all the talking head news commentary shows that I watch, I've seen these two discussions taking place with the more conservative person taking the forementioned stances on these respective issues

I'm referring to people (WHO ARE MOSTLY CONSERVATIVE) who are opposed to AA and FOR religious discrimination. If you don't belong to this category, THEN I"M NOT TALKING ABOUT YOU!.

Look Apoc, if you have to result to personal attacks, don't bother posting.

Learn to read. That's all I ask.

Anyways, carry on. I'm done with you and this thread jack.

	27-06-2003 00:33									#24
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Exactly Apocolypse

I tried to say that, but feel short.

I really have no idea. IMO, we should find another measure of determination which would include a greater number of the people that need the help w/o calling it race. For the minute you say the word "race" in the same sentence as "equality" you are setting yourself up for a hypocritical statement, as far as education admissions are concerned.

	27-06-2003 00:37									#25
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quote: tee hee this was a troll. hook line and sinker!

You say that now, but I am a bigot

quote: Look Apoc, if you have to result to personal attacks, don't bother posting.

but Sava your lifeline requires you to absorb such attacks!... and then to redirect them + a little spam

	27-06-2003 00:46									#26
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If we would simply provide the same educational opportunities from pre-school - high school then the AA argument would be moot. My feeling is that you do NOT deny opportunity for a highly qualified person in order to grant it to a less qualified person regardless of past inequalities. Let's not try to fix the past, let's try to fix the future.

Discrimination by charities based on religion is a TOTALLY different topic. It makes sense that any group will show preference to those affiliated with it.

	27-06-2003 00:50									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Oh please, as I specified in the first post I'm referring to people (WHO ARE MOSTLY CONSERVATIVE) who are opposed to AA and FOR religious discrimination. If you don't belong to this category, THEN I"M NOT TALKING ABOUT YOU!. Look Apoc, if you have to result to personal attacks, don't bother posting. Learn to read. That's all I ask. Anyways, carry on. I'm done with you and this thread jack.

Honestly, I don't care about this. If you want me to, I can respond in pm. But the main problem I have with you at the moment is that you think that by replying to this, you can ignore the meaty, heavily substantive post I made. You call this a thread jack, but you are the one replying to one part of my post and ignoring the majorly on topic part.

	27-06-2003 00:59									#28
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quote: Oh please, as I specified in the first post I'm referring to people (WHO ARE MOSTLY CONSERVATIVE) who are opposed to AA and FOR religious discrimination. If you don't belong to this category, THEN I"M NOT TALKING ABOUT YOU!.

That's great Sava - because this is Zylka, and I wrote that long post with the A and B dilemma, and ONLY that post (and did not insult you anywhere in it)

Not only do I oppose AA, I am for religious discrimination. Now that I've met your prerequisites, please answer the question.

	27-06-2003 01:02									#29
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quote: because this is Zylka

quote: Not only do I oppose AA, I am for religious discrimination.

quote: please answer the question.

It can be like pulling teeth

	27-06-2003 01:06									#30
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quote: who are opposed to AA and FOR religious discrimination.

I don't believe that the faith-based initiatives amount to religious discrimination, hence I support them.