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Drogue
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Omnipresent conscience
Oct 2002
time: 05:29
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I propose going to war in 16 years, not 24 and they won't have built up their defenses, since they will be expecting HEC from us. If we go to war in 4 years, we will have no time to build any ships, and will still only have laser weapons with 10 years to impact. If we go to war in 16 years, we will have plasma armour, 16 years to build up ships, and 10 years to impact.
I'm betting that us, knowing we are about to go to war, will be able to build up our military more in 16 years than PEACE, who think we are still friends, and will remain our friends until they expect us to transmit HEC. I don't think they will build many defenders, if any, until the get HEC, since they expect to be getting it in 14 years. Why build anything worse when they expect to have (3) armour in 14 years?
I think if we go for Non Math we will have a war with our (2) against their (1), without any defenses ourselves and with at most 1 ship to attack with.
If we go for HEC we will have war with our (2) against their (1), with the ability to make (3) armour and with ~3 ships to attack with. A much better position IMHO.
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Drogue
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Omnipresent conscience
Oct 2002
time: 05:29
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Well... we can use that excuse later. I would be against asking them to forcefully where they got them, since we want to remain friendly for another 14 years. However we can use that, as you say, as a reason for breaking Pact. Remember we did buy from others too, although we believed they wouldn't trade, they may not believe that.
I think we want a controlled war. We want to wipe them to the stage they are no longer a credible threat, and until we have stolen all the techs they have that we don't (if any). We want a few sea bases too IMHO. I think see what they build. If they build some synth defenders, then get one 2-1-6 and one 2-3-6 (when we get HEC) for skirmishes, try taking out transports, CPs etc. then when we get Non Math, build two 4-3-6 ships and take bases. I think 2 ships is the minimum before we attack, and if they have synth defenders, we should have impact weapos before attacking.
Therefore, IMHO, we should build a 2-1-6 cruiser as well as the probe cruiser, before getting HEC. Then with HEC put Pi Square on building a 2-3-6 cruiser (will both prototype plasma and be resistant to their laser ships. We can leave it in their shipping lanes and no worry about it). Then as soon as we discover Non Math we build a 4-3-6 (or maybe a 4-2-6/4-1-6) cruiser, followed by another one. That gives us enough firepower to take out defenders, and a couple of ships for taking bases/garrison/skirmishes.
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Maniac
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Gent, Belgium
Jul 1999
time: 06:29
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quote:
Well... we can use that excuse later. |
Ok. I was just thinking, if for some reason - eg PEACE building lots of offense-capable ships - a majority of cyborgs decides not to go to war, we could send a message to PEACE, saying something like:
"Hi Flubber,
Despite that you claimed you didn't need level 1 techs, and thus that we should repay you another higher level tech to complete the IndAut deal, we have noticed you have recently acquired AppPhys. We are very disappointed by this, especially since we offered that tech several times to you to settle our debts. By acquiring AppPhys you admit your previous argument for not accepting our level 1 techs was a lie.
For this reason we are no longer willing to give to you our next researched tech. Instead we give you the following choice:
a) Accept Biogen to finally finish the IndAut.
b) Do not accept Biogen. In that case we will still consider the IndAut closed, and will not repay you any other tech.
Friendly greetings,
Drogue/DBTS/Maniac/whoever"
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Googlie
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Commanding Officer, CRYPTEIA
Apr 1999
time: 21:29
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Roleplay - you are the logical faction
Logically, you should build the MCC because:
you already have an almost completed obsolete SP in the works (they can see that from their pact infiltration)
the free naval yard in every base is more valuable to you than to them, as they already have that as a faction bonus (when they discovered Doc: Ini)
They are not close to starting, let alone finishing the SP (youc an see that from your pact infiltration on them)
If they refuse, then logically the alternatives are:
you give up the quest for the MCC, conceding it to them
You take Doc: Init from them and build the MCC anyway, holding back on delivering HEC until they agree that your move was the most logical
you get Doc Init on your own in 2 turns, and that turncan complete the MCC
you can unilaterally give them Biogenetics for the owed tech, and tell them that you are now quits
Is war likely? You can see their military strengths as well, from your pactmate infiltration - you just don't know the location of their schooners (but remember, on breaking pact, all their units within your territorial boundaries are returned to their nearest base
(and war benefits you more than them - your faction bonus is "steal tech when conquering a base")
So what is logical?
G (on looking at the big picture)
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Maniac
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Gent, Belgium
Jul 1999
time: 06:29
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Great post Googlie. I just hope you aren't telling PEACE "Roleplay - you are a pirate faction, so you should attack CyCon". 
Btw, PEACE says it gave Doc:Ini pre-accepted. Would it be cheating (and thus not allowed) or simply breaking their trust if we accepted Doc:Ini and then refused to give them anything in return?
Somewhere at the start of the game Flubber, FlameFlash or some other pirate said he considers it cheating when a faction B breaks a deal where faction A gives a tech to faction B which B already has, and where faction B all in one turn accepts the tech, choses another tech, researches that tech and should give it to faction A right away. I agree with them on that point. However personally I would disagree it is cheating (and simply breaking an agreement instead) if the leapfrog extents over more turns, or if a tech is offered pre-accepted by faction A while faction B had never agreed to anything yet (which is the situation here).
What is your opinion as CMN of this game on this matter?
***
To the Consciousness:
If it is allowed by Googlie to accept Doc:Ini without cheating, I would propose we just accept Doc:Ini right now, rush the MCC this turn and break all our deals with them. But Drogue's argument to research HEC before NonlMath -namely that PEACE will expect HEC from us, giving us more time to build up our military before they suspect something - is then no longer valid, so I would again want to recommend we research Nonlinear Mathematics before HEC. We will then have Impact Guns in only two years, which should be fast enough to build a few cheap 4-1-8(!) ships (perhaps we should even use crawlers to rush the prototypes to knock many years off production time) and catch them by surprise before they can build enough synthmetal defences. 
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Maniac
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Gent, Belgium
Jul 1999
time: 06:29
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DeathByTheSword
quote:
well as soon as we build the MCC we have a big dimplomatic fight on our hands...so what shall send as reply? |
Do you mean a reply to Flubber's latest PM, or a reply for when we build the MCC?
If you mean the latter, it depends IMHO.
If in our turn we take Doc:Ini from PEACE without closing a deal, or if we promise not to build the MCC and then do it later anyway, I see only two options:
a) We ignore all their PMs.
b) We send a declaration of war.
If we research Doc:Ini ourselves, a possible response could be:
"The fact that we have currently have a pact does not mean you can dictate what secret projects we can build."
Drogue:
quote:
I think we want a controlled war. We want to wipe them to the stage they are no longer a credible threat, and until we have stolen all the techs they have that we don't (if any). We want a few sea bases too IMHO. |
Is that realistic? IMHO once we declare war we will have trouble with PEACE for the rest of the game, even if we sign a truce later. We would have to keep a strong military force present at all times.
quote:
I think 2 ships is the minimum before we attack, and if they have synth defenders, we should have impact weapos before attacking. |
I doubt two ships would be sufficient to start a credible attack. Do keep in mind that if they have synthmetal defenders, that the odds impact versus synthmetal become equal due to the free naval yards. This mean we will loose on average one ship per defender we have to take out. Especially for that reason I think we should opt for going to war and researching NonlMath right away, and not wait some twenty years before building some offense-capable ships. The longer we wait, the more synthmetal defenders they can build...
quote:
Then with HEC put Pi Square on building a 2-3-6 cruiser (will both prototype plasma and be resistant to their laser ships. We can leave it in their shipping lanes and no worry about it). |
Do keep in mind that ships have two ways of attacking. IIRC:
a) direct attack: weapon against armour
b) long range artillery fire: weapon against weapon
If the PEACE captains of their 2-1/2-4s have any common sense, they will not attack 2-3-6s directly - with 40% chance of success - but will rather use long range artillery fire, with 50% chance of success.
This is another reason why armour is relatively useless for sea combat and that IMHO we should research NonlMath first.
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Googlie
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Commanding Officer, CRYPTEIA
Apr 1999
time: 21:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Maniac
Btw, PEACE says it gave Doc:Ini pre-accepted. Would it be cheating (and thus not allowed) or simply breaking their trust if we accepted Doc:Ini and then refused to give them anything in return?
Somewhere at the start of the game Flubber, FlameFlash or some other pirate said he considers it cheating when a faction B breaks a deal where faction A gives a tech to faction B which B already has, and where faction B all in one turn accepts the tech, choses another tech, researches that tech and should give it to faction A right away. I agree with them on that point. However personally I would disagree it is cheating (and simply breaking an agreement instead) if the leapfrog extents over more turns, or if a tech is offered pre-accepted by faction A while faction B had never agreed to anything yet (which is the situation here).
What is your opinion as CMN of this game on this matter?
***
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I'd rule that accepting the tech, then reneging on any implied deal was a legitimate gameplay tactic.
The rules I believe we are following are the Forum wars set:
• Communications - none till contact, obtain commlink, or build EG (team mates can communicate from the beginning)
• Total freedom in Design Workshop (upgrades anytime, during turn or on-field)
• Retro-engineering - OK, except for using the probe rover chassis before discovering Doc. Mobility
• SE switches "quickies" forbidden - (obviously you can experiment to see what effect various SE choices have, but cannot change, play moves, then change back in the same turn)
• Council notification - immediate broadcast to all players (Post in the thread and e-mail to all immediately by player who has called elections, citing candidates and votes. After each player's turn, post in the thread the running totals)
• Stockpiling in Qs anytime - OK
• Crawlers Upgrade anytime - OK (see Design Workshop, earlier)
• Probe actions: Must choose vendetta option when probing other players, rebuke when probing pactmates (OK to probe teammate at any time)
• Demanding withdrawal through the menus rather than by negotiation is prohibited
• Bribing (or accepting bribes) for votes through the diplomatic channel box by clicking on the faction leader's picture is prohibited (must be conducted by diplo message or e-mail)
• Multiple drops - cannot use the right click mouse feature to extend range of drop units beyond the 8 tiles (pre Space Elevator)
• Base growth through Colony Pods - can be used to increase a base size up to the applicable pre-facility limit, but cannot be used to breach that limit without the facility being built.
• Psi units cannot be assigned multiple waypoint patrol routes (to avoid instant demon boil bug)
• Cannot accept pending treaties/pacts after declaring vendetta in the same turn
• Cannot change an infiltrated faction's workers to specialists, for example by using the F4 screen (or the bases icon of the F2 screen)
I don't believe any others were added (at least I can't find them by browsing)
G.
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Drogue
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Omnipresent conscience
Oct 2002
time: 05:29
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Here are my opinions.
Maniac: It would be very evil of us, and would damage our relations with other factions, but I think it is not cheating since they pre-accepted it without any other conditions. They should have offered it but not pre-accepted if they didn't want it. We could even claim that we did not get the email 
If we do get to choose another tech for 2 years time, then I agree let us go for Non Math. HEC meant we could extend our Pact, but with only 2 turns to research, that is not necessary. However rushing the first Impact Cruiser and the MCC would be essential. However I do see that as the best option IMHO.
Also, do not send that reply, it's way to hostile. We want to take them by surprise.
DBTS: If you reply, make sure you stress that the 'mix-up' was accidental and does not show a lack of consideration.
Personally, I DBTS should not reply, and we should accept Doc Ini, choosing Non Math afterwards. Then send them a message asking why they pre-accepted that, and thanks for the gift. If they ask, claim we never got the email/PM (unless it shows?  ). Or we could just be evil and do it anyway. Either way, we are going to build the MCC, so we cannot agree to those terms in good conscience.
We have 3 options IMHO:
- Accept and choose to research Non Math next, and break pact - WAR in 2. Either claim not to have received PM or just declare.
- Do exactly as we were intending to do before. Say no to the deal, research HEC, don't giv it and then research Non Math. War in 16.
- Accept and choose to research HEC next. Details given in paragraph below
As for the last option. If we accept the deal at face value, offering them another tech for it, and say we'll transmit HEC to them, then we can consider it not cheating whatever. Choose HEC next, and then in the next 2 turns, sour relations, and because of that, refuse to trade. That is not cheating, since the relations soured after we accepted the deal.
I favour the first option personally, although it is evil and could damage future relations. However I think we need war, and this gives us an opportunity to go to war already 2 techs up in diplomacy against PEACE. We have much to gain fromwar, possibly more than from any future diplomacy.
I'd say they have been so anti-pact with not giving us commlinks, with tryign to trade higher and higher prices, etc, that we should just call the bluff, build the MCC (we need it) and take to the seas with impact weapons. We get surprise and decent weapons 
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Googlie
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Commanding Officer, CRYPTEIA
Apr 1999
time: 21:29
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Last edited by Googlie on 14-10-2003 at 21:58
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03-10-2003 23:22
I guess we have to go for HEC first then in order to make a semblance of keeping to the deal, since we will not be ready for war in 2 turns. Unless we can rush a laser cruiser or two? IMHO the best option is now to research HEC, but don't trade, so we have some defense and PEACE doesn't, all the wqhile building laser cruisers. Then attack PEACE while researching Non Math.
).
than going for NonMath asap...
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