11-10-2003 00:12									#331
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Is that realistic? IMHO once we declare war we will have trouble with PEACE for the rest of the game, even if we sign a truce later. We would have to keep a strong military force present at all times.

We fight until they are no longer a credible threat. Ie maybe leave them with one or two bases. We will want a strong military at sea anyway IMHO.

quote: Originally posted by Maniac I doubt two ships would be sufficient to start a credible attack. Do keep in mind that if they have synthmetal defenders, that the odds impact versus synthmetal become equal due to the free naval yards. This mean we will loose on average one ship per defender we have to take out. Especially for that reason I think we should opt for going to war and researching NonlMath right away, and not wait some twenty years before building some offense-capable ships. The longer we wait, the more synthmetal defenders they can build...

They don't have synthmetal, and how does that work with naval yards? We have them too with the MCC, so they won't get the moral advantage. I think we should rush 2 impact cruisers ASAP, but we should build more, just not rush them. We can start to attack with 2 ships, but we need a minimum of 2, IMHO.

quote: Originally posted by Maniac Do keep in mind that ships have two ways of attacking. IIRC: a) direct attack: weapon against armour b) long range artillery fire: weapon against weapon If the PEACE captains of their 2-1/2-4s have any common sense, they will not attack 2-3-6s directly - with 40% chance of success - but will rather use long range artillery fire, with 50% chance of success. This is another reason why armour is relatively useless for sea combat and that IMHO we should research NonlMath first.

Doesn't artillery fire take ages to damage, like 3 or 4 turns to kill a ship? I doubt it will be of much use at all, personally.

If we accept, and can have Non Math in 2 years, then yes, IMHO. If not, and we have to have 12 years at war before Non Math, then that is very dangerous without HEC, since they will attack us.

	11-10-2003 00:31									#332
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Last edited by Googlie on 14-10-2003 at 22:00

	11-10-2003 00:32									#333
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Last edited by Googlie on 14-10-2003 at 22:00

	11-10-2003 00:33									#334
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There's more than that though, if you scroll down. They have little defense, and gunships to attack with though We will wipe the floor with them

	11-10-2003 01:11									#335
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Googlie:

quote: I'd rule that accepting the tech, then reneging on any implied deal was a legitimate gameplay tactic.

That's great.

quote: So ideally a naval bombardment followed by a tranny offloading amphibious troops seems to be the best tactic in PBEMs I have played (and, interestingly, is one of the things the AI seems to do well)

Great idea!

Drogue:

quote: It would be very evil of us, and would damage our relations with other factions

Perhaps if we released a communiqué to the world telling the bad treatment PEACE gave us and the reasons we go to war, the other factions might "forgive" us and not hold it against us in possible future negotiations.

quote: I favour the first option personally, although it is evil and could damage future relations. However I think we need war, and this gives us an opportunity to go to war already 2 techs up in diplomacy against PEACE. We have much to gain fromwar, possibly more than from any future diplomacy.

I couldn't agree more.

quote: They don't have synthmetal

They have Industrial Base, so they can start producing it. Now I think about it, I believe they traded the tech with PUT at the initial stages of the IndAut deal (though they claimed they bought it from the Angels...)

quote: and how does that work with naval yards?

Naval Yards add +100% to units in a base defending against naval units.

quote: I think we should rush 2 impact cruisers ASAP, but we should build more, just not rush them.

Ah ok. Though I think we should build a cruiser transport asap too, in Boolean Bay or Aurora, to use for the amphibious assault tactic Googlie mentioned.

quote: Doesn't artillery fire take ages to damage, like 3 or 4 turns to kill a ship?

I'm not sure as I hardly play SMAC (or any computer game) anymore, except for the democracy game. But IIRC, though atillery-to-non-artillery or land<->sea artillery fights only do partial damage, land artillery against land artillery is to the death. Unfortunately I don't know if the same counts for sea artillery fights...
Btw, what are the retreat rules again for sea combat? Was it just that any ship withdraws when it has 50% damage, or is it only under certain conditions?

	11-10-2003 02:31									#336
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I have just done a plan that gives us the MCC at the same time as our first sea unit (the first time we will need it), gives us an impact cruiser in 2144, and means that by 2152 we have 2 impact cruisers, a synthmetal cruiser transport, 2 amphibious impact squads and 2 amphibious impact rovers, all in the same base as the transport.

Sounds like a good attack party to me An thread should be up in 5 minutes with turn by turn details .

Edit: Maniac beat me too it, my post is here in Maniac's thread on the PEACE war.

Last edited by Drogue on 11-10-2003 at 02:50

	11-10-2003 02:41									#337
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Sounds great! The CyCon war machine has kicked into action!

	11-10-2003 15:02									#338
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Let's start training those kickass Navy Seals

	11-10-2003 18:50									#339
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shall i reply to flubber saying that we dont want to deal...or what? i have been away a little while and there is a lot of new post here...so what is the general concensus?

	11-10-2003 19:01									#340
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Please don't reply anything to Flubber! We're going to try to use the trick again where we claim you are inactive. We'll pretend like we haven't read the PM where Flubber explains why he offered us Doc:Ini. We'll then accept the tech in our turn, so-called not knowing why they offered it, switch research to Nonlinear Mathematics, build the MCC and attack PEACE. By claiming we did not have any bad intention by accepting Doc:Ini, they may start war production a little later.

	11-10-2003 20:48									#341
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ok

	11-10-2003 23:39									#342
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Glad we're all up to speed. And Maniac is right, do not reply to them at all.

Fellow functions, let us prepare for war

	13-10-2003 16:52									#343
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i just received the following PM from Flubber:

quote: Re: Official communiqué: pact severance I had no notice that DBTS was inactive as the last item I heard was that he was your ambassador. I sent a PM requesting trade negotiations and herc put in doc ini pre-accepted in the diplo window so we would have no repeat of our earlier miscommunications and not have it offered in time . .. MY PM indicated that it should not be accepted without a deal being completed I am now doubly suprised as I hear that you folks have accepted doc ini and plan to break our pact. I feel this must have been your plan all along since you have hardly felt like pactmates to us all for a long time. We do have a quandry however if you have accepted something without reaching a deal. . . Future tech does not cut it as consideration this time . .. As for applied physics . .. IIRC we picked it up where someone "Threw in" an extra tech since the one we offered was perceived as higher value . . . To quote you, your price was too high for a tech we could pick up for a lot less elsewhere. It was essentially free to us in any event. Frankly, as soon to be ex pactmates, I don't feel we owe you any explaination. Its too bad you feel as you do. I had looked forward to leveraging both our factions onward and upward together. But my instinct as to you as pactmates was obviously correct .. . How could we trust you as pactmates when you brak pact so easily?? I will send a separate PM with what I sent to DBTS on the doc ini trade issue . .. Disappointed FLub

The PM where he resent me the PM he sent to DBTS starts with:

quote: Here is what I sent on the 9th of Oct. INterestingly DBTS shows as online at this moment.

So, who should respond what? Though it seems they're not buying it, still the idea where I claim Drogue accepted Doc:Ini without permission, and is before the Discplinary Committee? Or should we - in an attempt to delay a military build-up - pretend like we're willing to repay their techs, but only Biogen to complete the IndAut deal, as they "lied to us" about AppPhys?

	13-10-2003 17:50									#344
	Increase Your PM Length

hmz...send a PM that because of internal problems over the last played turn the reponse will be delayed...making it seem we have internal fight about something...giving us more time

	13-10-2003 17:59									#345
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Do not say we're willing to give them tech, let them think we'll still repay them with HEC. Try something like

quote: Greetings Flubber, It was not our plan all along. As I stated in my PM, we wanted to be Pactmates, and to hold it together. However we did not like being played off against other factions, and did not like the way deals were brokered between us. The decision was more for the sake of our stress than for in-game reasons. I do not think we broke Pact easily, we have had a rocky relationship since the start, and it was becoming more and more untenable. As you said, you have not felt like pactmates either for a long time. With us both feeling like that, it seemed that the most logical decision was to cut our losses and reduce to a treaty. While you had no notice of DBTS's inactivity, we did mention it when apologising for the last mix-up regarding tech choice, due to DBTS not being the most active member of our forum. He posts occasionally at the moment, however we hope he will soon be back to his old active self. What this led too, was us having the turn without knowing of the PM from you. I PMed you to find out. However Drogue, as Prime Function, stated that he "would not delay our turn for PEACE again". While the Prime Function is able to play when he wishes, he was going against our constitution by going against the opinion of the masses who wanted to wait for an explanation from PEACE. Therefore he has been temporarily removed as Prime Function and has been put before a disciplinary committee. We are sorry for his actions. We are currently researching HEC, and will transmit to you when completed to make up for the IndAuto deal. What do you wish for Doc: Ini? Friendly greetings Second Function Mani Alpha-3

Obviously in your own words, but what do you think? I will still play the turn, but for the next few turns, if someone else could post them, so it seems like I've been temorarily removed.

	13-10-2003 18:03									#346
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i like the devillish thoughs the Consciousness has

	13-10-2003 18:40									#347
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This is going to make for very interesting reading if the private fora ever become public.

	13-10-2003 20:21									#348
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Seems good ,

although i fear Flubber will believe pretty much nothing what we say at the moment

	13-10-2003 22:52									#349
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He is welcome to believe what he wants. I'm more concerned about what he'll say to the Hive and to the Drones, whome we need to ally with. If we have enough plausable reasons, then we have a defense, if they decide to bad-mouth us. I couldn't give a flying **** what Flubber thinks, since they won't be around too long, but the others do matter.

	13-10-2003 23:49									#350
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Most recent PM. I'll tell my opinion later...

quote: I hope this was a miscommunication Maniac I believe the following events have occurred 1. We offered doc ini in the commlinls with a message to look for communication from me. as to terms. 2. I sent a PM to DBTS on Oct9 outlining some preliminary ideas as to terms with the hoped of negotaiating a deal 3. You Pmed me inquiring what the doc ini offer was about in a PM indicating you were ending our pact 4. I am informed your faction ACCEPTED DOC INI. 5. Nobody in our faction seems to have received any communication as to your offers for this. Your communication to me indicated DBTS was away. IS any of the foregoing in error ?? THis is not roleplaying. In any PBEM I have played, I often pre-accept offers in the diplobox so that the game mechanics are not an impediment to trade and the deal can be accomplished withinn the game once terms are settles by email or pm. Its ALWAYS understood that you can't just accept the tech. In fact it would be a cheat or a foul to do so, regardless of diplomatic status, unless you knew the tech was a gift. You definitely knew the tech was not a gift . . . I am hoping that I am misinformed or there was some mixup that you can explain. Please advise Flubber

	14-10-2003 00:18									#351
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Send the PM I had above, in your own words. Also say we did not 'know' the tech was not a gift. What else where we to assume when we had no communication regarding it? Then go into the bit about me not wanting to wait on our turn for PEACE, so just playing and hoping it is worked out later. We did not think it was to be worked out before acceptance, as we had not received communication and did not expect you to think it could all be worked out within the 48 hours of our turn.

Then say that "it is not 'always' understood, since we did not understand it. If you offer a tech, pre-accepted, then you expect it to be taken. I am sorry if we misunderstood your intention, but the rules we agreed for this DG did not state anything about not accepting pre-accepted techs in the diplomacy box."

Or something like that.

	14-10-2003 00:32									#352
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Indeed.

BTW, if anybody was against hostile relations with PEACE, it's too late now.

Sounds good, though I doubt it will affect anything in the slightest. This is the point where both of us know what is going on (just not necessarily specifics), but we have to keep up friendly communications. Something tells me that not just PEACE, but the members of PEACE, especially Flubber, will have a grudge against us for a LONG time.

	14-10-2003 00:34									#353
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just tell them because we almost finished ini they help us by giving it to us so that we could research HEC to give to them very soon

	14-10-2003 00:48									#354
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Does anybody ever feel a little bad about lying to the Pirates like this?

...
...
...

Because I don't.

	14-10-2003 00:48									#355
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quote: Do not say we're willing to give them tech, let them think we'll still repay them with HEC.

But then they'll know next turn already we don't plan to pay them back. If we say we are in doubt to pay HEC but only Biogen because of them obtaining AppPhys, we could make them believe a little bit longer we intend to pay them back.

As to Flubber's expected complaint we are cheating, he has a point of course... (Though on the other side I believe there are precedents where players accidentally offered something in the diplobox, the other player accepted it, and there was no problem - the first player just had to be more careful, or should have contacted the other player earlier. IIRC here too PEACE only contacted us again shortly before receiving our turn, probably hoping to rush a deal again in 48 hours. ) Anyway, now the dice has been rolled, we'll have to keep up the story, and when they officially say we have cheated, count on Googlie to repeat as he assured us we have not broken any agreed upon game rule.

Anyway, how about a PM like below. Tongue firmly in cheek of course... Tell me if I'm overexaggerating...

quote: Hi Flubber, The whole situation with DBTS not announcing the official PMs he receives and Drogue accepting Doc:Ini just like that is all a big unintended mess. In the second half of September, while I was External Affairs Function and at the same time more or less the acting Prime Function/Turn Player I could coordinate the foreign negotiations and the turn playing perfectly. But now Drogue is back, DBTS EAF, and I - having the ACPSG in mind - voluntarily moved to the less active position of second function, things are more or less in chaos. Coordination is lacking severely. If you ask me, Drogue and DBTS are simply incompetent. As told before, DBTS - though of course he isn't the most active member - simply didn't tell he had received a PM from you. I sent you a PM myself as Second Function, but alas too late: soon after Drogue played the turn. Drogue, being the most fervent anti-pact supporter, explained it a few hours later to me as "I didn't want to delay our turn for PEACE again." While the Prime Function is able to play when he wishes, he was going against our constitution by going against the opinion of some members who wanted to wait for an explanation from you. But be assured, I have sued him for a "disciplinary committee" and he has been temporarily removed as Prime Function. Despite this very unfortunate acception of Doc:Ini, I'll make sure you'll get compensated for it soon. We are currently researching HEC, so the first part of our debts should be paid back in the near future. As for the matter of pact severance, I frankly feel you do us injustice when you say we broke the pact easily, and when you depict us again as the bad guys and you as the perfect pactmate As I told before, the feeling among the Consciousness majority is they did not like being played off against other factions, and did not like the way deals were brokered between us. The decision was more for the sake of our stress than for in-game reasons. I do not think we broke Pact easily, we have had a rocky relationship since the start, and it was becoming more and more untenable. As you said, you have not felt like pactmates either for a long time. With us both feeling like that, it seemed that the most logical decision was to cut our losses and reduce to a treaty. I voted against breaking the pact, but I understand the reason why other voted in favour of the action. Greetings, Maniac

Edit: Wow! Many comments while writing this PM. I'll see if I can work them into the PM. It's already volumous though...

	14-10-2003 00:52									#356
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Maybe tone it down a bit. It seems almost too sickly sweet.

	14-10-2003 01:18									#357
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I presumed my PM would be too exaggerating... But I had fun writing it. Anyway, a literal copy of Drogue's PM then, with the additions he mentioned in his latest post? :

***

Hi Flubber,

It was not "our plan all along". As I stated in my PM, we wanted to be Pactmates, and to hold it together. However we did not like being played off against other factions, and did not like the way deals were brokered between us. The decision was more for the sake of our stress than for in-game reasons. I do not think we broke Pact easily: we have had a rocky relationship since the start, and it was becoming more and more untenable. As you said, you have not felt like pactmates either for a long time. With us both feeling like that, it seemed that the most logical decision was to cut our losses and reduce to a treaty.

While you had no notice of DBTS's inactivity, we did mention it when apologizing for the last mix-up regarding tech choice, due to DBTS not being the most active member of our forum. He posts occasionally at the moment, however we hope he will soon be back to his old active self. What this led too, was us having the turn without knowing of the PM from you. I PMed you to find out. However Drogue, as Prime Function, stated that he "would not delay our turn for PEACE again". While the Prime Function is able to play when he wishes, he was going against our constitution by going against the opinion of the masses who wanted to wait for an explanation from PEACE. Therefore he has been temporarily removed as Prime Function and has been put before a disciplinary committee. We are sorry for his actions. We are currently researching HEC, and will transmit to you when completed.

That does not mean however that Drogue cheated by accepting Doc:Ini. He did not know the tech was not a gift. What else was he to assume when we had no communication regarding it? As I told in the previous paragraph, Drogue didn't want to stall our turn again, so he just played and hoped it would be worked out later. He did not think it was to be worked out before acceptance, as we had not received communication and did not expect you to think it could all be worked out within the 48 hours of our turn.
It is not 'always' understood that pre-accepted techs shouldn't be accepted, since we did not understand it automatically. That may have to do with there not being any PBEM veterans in our team. As far as I know, if you offer a tech, pre-accepted, then you expect it to be taken. I am sorry if we misunderstood your intention, but the rules we agreed for this DG did not state anything about not accepting pre-accepted techs in the diplomacy box. (Should we include these two last sentences? )

Friendly greetings,

Second Function Mani Alpha-3

Last edited by Maniac on 14-10-2003 at 01:25

	14-10-2003 01:46									#358
	Got spare money?

That is great. I think the last two sentances work great, and much better than I had put it. I like your first one two (especially the bit about my incompetance ) but the 2nd is probably better from a game point of view.

Flubber just PMed me to ask for an explanation, so send it ASAP please. He's getting suspicious

	14-10-2003 01:52									#359
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Actually, Maniac, you've forgot to mention recompenses for Doc Ini. At the bottom of paragraph 2 it says

quote: We are sorry for his actions. We are currently researching HEC, and will transmit to you when completed.

whereas it might be better as

quote: We are sorry for his actions. What would you like in recompense? We are currently researching HEC, and will transmit to you when completed to complete the last deal.

	14-10-2003 01:55									#360
	Got spare money?

Though they're good, I say nix the last two sentences, then send it off ASAP.