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Kuciwalker
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of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
Ok, let's see if I can speak for you accurately.
Equal opportunity is something which is impossible to achieve. Even if it was a possibility, success would be determined strictly by ability as skywalker has stated. If success was determined strictly by ability it doesn't follow that the losers would benefit from the system. Communism is a system that recognizes that opportunity can not be equal and that the govt should benefit everyone and treat everyone fairly. |
No, communism is a goverment that the government should benefit everyone and treat everyone equally, which is stupid. Discrimination on basis of ability is perfectly acceptable... last time I checked, at least.
Also, equal opportunity is NOT impossible to achieve. As long as there is no discrimination on basis of gender, race, religion, sexual orientation, or nationality, you have equal opportunity.
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Dr Strangelove
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I disagree with Bodd's premise. To me equal opportunity means access to a decent education for all, unbiased hiring and unbiased financial opportunities. I see utterly no advantage to leaving the working classes undereducated. I work a lot with lower income people and believe me, my job is a lot easier when I deal with rational, reasonably educated people.
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:29
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quote:
Originally posted by skywalker
Also, equal opportunity is NOT impossible to achieve. As long as there is no discrimination on basis of gender, race, religion, sexual orientation, or nationality, you have equal opportunity. |
As long as parents raise their children (I suppose we all want it to stay so), they have a huge impact on their children's education, learning ability, values* etc. This means that richer, more educated or more integrated parents are more likely to give better opportunities to their children, to give them a better start in their life.
Of course that's appealing. And everybody wants his kids to be successful in life. But by doing so, parents create inequal opportunity. This explains why so many people remain in about the same social category as their parents (or slightly higher).
In a pure equal-opportunity system, people from poor and uneducated families would have it as easy becoming doctors as children of doctors. It is obviously not the case right now : it demands a huge motivation to rise to the top when you are starting at the bare bottom (I acknowledge it is possible). It takes much less motivation and effort if you are already starting high.
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I agree with Drogue
in principle, positive discrimination is just as bad discrimination...
In practice, I would accept it in extreme cases (getting into university is extreme) but I believe its actually bad long term. For example helping racial minorities to get in university DIRECTLY (not because they are poor or whatever but just BECAUSE of their skin color) is like giving them an electric wheelchair. SUre its fun to play around with all the buttons, but its even harder to catch up the others once you've stayed on it too long.
For equality among sexes, will not be reached when 50% of bank employees are female (or male) whatever these ppl making the quotas think. Equality will be achieved when at all levels, sex is NOT a factor at all for these kind of decisions.
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MichaeltheGreat
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
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mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:29
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
I guess people who never have kids are a bunch fo sueless freaks. After all, without children, man does nothing to strive to succeed. I mena, look at that Loser Alexander the great. He neevr ahd kids, and he amounted to nothing. What did he think he was doing anyway?
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Biological warfare, genocide, mass slavery. Yep, Alexander was a standup guy. 
quote:
Thinking that people do it all for the children is an arguement that is absurd on it face. Many of the most ambitious and driven people on earth could give a **** about their kids and what happens to them, even while they are alive. |
Yeah, we need more "**** the future, I'm in it for myself here and now, baby!" types. More people should emulate Addi and Uncle Joe, too - they were paragons of ambition and drive.
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:29
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In terms of hiring and firing, as a private employer, one can hire who one wants. Ideally, it should be based on ability not race, but whether it is or not is down to the education and dispositions of that employer. If he chooses to hire only a certain demographic, then in his own private endeavor, that is his perogative.
Certainly in public institutions, under the control of the government, while I dont think equal opportunities in terms of employment should be staturatory, I think they shuold be encouraged and as a guideline, these insitutions should hire solely on the basis of ability.
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:29
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i dont understand Boddington... not even the most conservative americans would take a position like this. i know england was not founded on the idea of oppurtunity but still...
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:29
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quote:
Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Biological warfare, genocide, mass slavery. Yep, Alexander was a standup guy. |
I would assume better from you MtG. The point Bodds makes is that people are only ambitious to give their kids a leg up. If they didn;t have such an ability, they would do nothing. This is obviously wrong.
quote:
Yeah, we need more "**** the future, I'm in it for myself here and now, baby!" types. More people should emulate Addi and Uncle Joe, too - they were paragons of ambition and drive. |
They are paragons of ambition and drive. Not of morality, but of ambition and drive, which are morally neutral things. Oh, and we do encourage selfishness and living for the today now a days.
You can't get on a moral high horse that does not currently exist here.
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:29
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i swore Spink as 'Stewart Spink' was a moderate liberal... now he's a crazy nut...
come on, boddingtons... I'm calling you a nut... me...
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:29
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quote:
But for those who are arguing that equal opportunity refers only to certain things like education and jobs, how is that equal opportunity unless you outlaw all private and home schooling if those alternatives to the government schools are more effective at educating children? The education would still be unequal, therefore, "equal opportunity" is a fiction. Maybe we shouldn't read "equal opportunity" literally... |
The idea is that of the government making possible, not making mandatory. Take universal health care. In countires with it, if you are sick, you still have to get yourself to it, its not like they force you to go to the hospital. Same here. Parents most certainly would have the ability to opt out of the opportunities given to them, as long as they could show that what they were doing was not hurting the child (like keeping him from school and not educating him at all). Besides, home schooling is not that much of an advantage once one gets to higher education, which pasrents can not do on their own, one becuase the individual is now a free adult, and two becuase they are not accredited teaching institutions.
The idea is to give the safety net, so that if you need it , it is there.
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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:29
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GePap -
Let me guess, that was a rebuttal? 
quote:
And equal rights do not exist either since rich people and poor people exist: so lets kill all of one of them! |
I want to kill people with less opportunity? Equal rights do exist, doesn't matter if you're rich or poor. A right is a legitimate, i.e., moral claim to act in accordance with the meaning of freedom.
If you're rich and I'm poor, how does that simple fact produce for me a lesser "right" to live than you?
quote:
You want totally equal opportunity? |
Nope, I'd settle for a little truth in advertising. If ya'll want "equal opportunity" and chastise those who don't care for your agenda, I think it only fair to point out you don't want equal opportunity either.  You want certain steps taken to bring us closer to equal opportunity, so does that mean people - communists - who want to take even more steps are better, more moral people?
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then not only must home schooling be done away with, but all the Kids must learn form the same single individual existing at the same point in space time for all eternity! |
Why? If the goal is "equal opportunity", we'd use whatever method was available to provide children with an equal education. I'm sure we can devise a system for ascertaining the abilities of all teachers, say, a series of tests, to make sure children don't get someone too smart or too stupid. Remember, it's a goal, so why stop reforming education when we have such obvious (not trivial) advantages for some children while the rest are dis-advantaged?
quote:
All kids, today and tommorrow, and yesterday must all be made to inhabit the same very point in space time to insure utter and complete equality. Anything less means equality is impossible! |
Hmm...is this where I insert some latin term like reducto absurdum?
quote:
Give me a break. Your point is a triviality, as it were, an absurdity. |
Funny, that was what I was just thinking. But you haven't answered my question. How will we achieve this equal opportunity if some of us get to give our kids advantages like private and home schooling? Doesn't seem trivial to me, and not to alot of liberals running public school systems. They are trying to outlaw home schooling already in certain states. Of course, they didn't introduce a law banning the practice, they are currently just trying to regulate it out of existence. If we see a voucher system, that'll be the way for liberals to ruin private schools too...
Last edited by Berzerker on 27-06-2003 at 12:27
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27-06-2003 04:07
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