27-06-2003 00:47									#1
	Hopefully, Equal Opportunities Will Never Exist Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Was sat on the bus home from work thinking what a situation completely equal opportunities would lead to. A rather bad one.

Think about it. Those of you with children, what is the (main) thing that encouraged you to work harder, to go for those higher-income jobs? For yourself, partly, for your wife, partly as well. But I am hypothesising that providing the best possible start for your children is the main incentive.

..to provide them with the best schooling..a decent neighbourhood to grow up in..sports..clothes that at least aren't tatty..

Now, let's think for a moment that no matter how hard you try to work for your children's future, their "opportunities" are forced through some social policy to be equal. There would be no incentive to work more productively to provide for your kids future as any achievements you make in order to further their chances will be cancelled out by the social policies that would be implemented in order to have "equal opportunities" for all.

There would be less need to work hard. There would be less need to go for that income-boosting stressful job, as the incentives just to provide for yourself and your wife will not be as big as when the incentive included providing for your kids. Your productivity would fall. Consider this on a larger scale. Poor economic growth.

See where I am heading? Equal opportunities might sound a nice dream to aim for, but it's on a par with communism - sounds a good idea but clearly is not when examined beyond the spin and nice-sounding phrases.

Inequal opportunities are necessary for incentives - and as we all know, incentives are the driving force behind our market-based systems. And since inequal opportunities obviously exist, it's beneficial for our economy that they do.

	27-06-2003 00:50									#2
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Equal Opportunity does not equal Communism.

Equal Success would yield the nightmare you just described.

Yet, Equal Opportunit does not equal Equal Success.

You still have the opportunity to fail.

	27-06-2003 00:52									#3
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equal opportunities != equal numbers of employees from each demographic group

equal opportunities == equal ratios of employees from each demographic group to members of population within each demographic group.


0/10

	27-06-2003 00:54									#4
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Bodds

	27-06-2003 00:57									#5
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I didn't mention demographics once. Demographics are irrelevant for this line or argument.

Besides, IW, there are many, many industries where one demographic heavily outweights the other in employment without the existence of inequal opportunities.

	27-06-2003 01:01									#6
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I don't think there will ever be totally flat opporunity for all... but I must admit, the situation of grossly unfair opportunity is hardly ideal.

Why not try to smooth out the bumps rather than build out the barriers?

Don't see your way as being the least bumpy Bods.

	27-06-2003 01:03									#7
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I guess people who never have kids are a bunch fo sueless freaks. After all, without children, man does nothing to strive to succeed. I mena, look at that Loser Alexander the great. He neevr ahd kids, and he amounted to nothing. What did he think he was doing anyway?

Thinking that people do it all for the children is an arguement that is absurd on it face. Many of the most ambitious and driven people on earth could give a **** about their kids and what happens to them, even while they are alive.

	27-06-2003 01:03									#8
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Hey I am only putting out an idea to you guys to think about as well. Maybe when some parents come online they'll manage to see what I am hitting at.

	27-06-2003 01:09									#9
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Equal educational opportunity is what is needed. This is a service provided by government and therefore should not be subject to the vast inequalities in opportunity and spending that are present. Complete equal opportunities is an impossibility for a huge number of reasons and is not worth considering as an argument. GePap states it well when he says that different goals for ones life (Hope you don't mind the extrapolation here Gepap) drive people in different directions. There is no such thing as equal opportunity, nor is it possible for there ever to be. What is needed is equal educational opportunity so that people may take full advantage of the other opportunities afforded to their individual lives so that they may obtain their individual goals.

	27-06-2003 01:12									#10
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quote: Many of the most ambitious and driven people on earth could give a **** about their kids and what happens to them, even while they are alive.

And many who have kids and take care of them are considered less ambitious. because of the career sacrifices.

How many of you consider a man who stays home to take care of the kids unambitious?

	27-06-2003 01:14									#11
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I consider a man who stays home takes care of his kids lucky.

	27-06-2003 01:15									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Japher I consider a man who stays home takes care of his kids lucky.

Wish I could!

	27-06-2003 01:20									#13
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Would someone with more patience than I possess please explain the difference between "Equal OPPORTUNITIES" and communism?

He's going to be graduating soon. What the hell has happened to the education system?

	27-06-2003 01:21									#14
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It's so sad that so many people believe the crap in the first thread. I don't understand how people can be evil. The questions WHY? HOW? pop into my head whenever I read garbage like this. I guess this is a personal problem I must deal with. I must accept the fact that racism and bigotry exist. I must accept the fact that some people want to see other people smoldering in a pit.

I pray that future generations are mature enough to not tolerate this type of regressive thinking.

	27-06-2003 01:37									#15
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edit: blah. Sod it.

	27-06-2003 01:54									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat equal opportunities != equal numbers of employees from each demographic group equal opportunities == equal ratios of employees from each demographic group to members of population within each demographic group. 0/10

still wrong

equal opportunities == success is directly proportional to ability ONLY

	27-06-2003 02:08									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's Maybe when some parents come online they'll manage to see what I am hitting at.

I'm a parent... and I see EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE HITTING AT... Minorities... as ALWAYS...

	27-06-2003 02:11									#18
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quote: I must accept the fact that racism and bigotry exist

Yup. Ignore it and it will go away never works, it is that kind of "regressive thinking" I would like see done away with...

	27-06-2003 02:12									#19
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Could we have an equal opportunity banning? Pwease?

	27-06-2003 02:14									#20
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The Mods would never ban themselves

	27-06-2003 02:52									#21
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GePap:

actually Alexander the Great did have a son except he was brutally murdered a few years after Alexander died

	27-06-2003 03:01									#22
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Well, that's news to me.

Still, daddy does not seem ot have cared much about making sure his kid did well.

Stalin had kids ans well, and he could have not cared less about them. As evil as he was, the accomplished more than 99% of human beings ever will.

	27-06-2003 03:11									#23
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quote: Many of the most ambitious and driven people on earth could give a **** about their kids and what happens to them, even while they are alive.

and

quote: Stalin had kids ans well, and he could have not cared less about them. As evil as he was, the accomplished more than 99% of human beings ever will.

Got any examples of successful people that DON'T have kids for your argument

	27-06-2003 03:16									#24
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Hitler, for one. Did any of the great Philosophers have lots of kids?

Did Trajan have a kid?

Oh, and what about Jesus?

And given how often you do hear about the kids, its hard to see how important they could have been to the lives of many of them.

	27-06-2003 03:19									#25
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Glad I could help !

	27-06-2003 03:38									#26
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I knew I was in for a laugh when I saw the thread title

Equality of opportunities shouldn't be legally enforced to the point at which they hurt liberty imo, but they should be socially encouraged.

Equal opportunities for success dont mean equal success.

In that sense, everyone should have equal legal rights and legal status, however, when it comes to employers, they should be free to choose who they want, on whatever basis because it is private domain.

Obviously, in public sector services for employment, people shuold be chosen on the basis of ability not race or sex. In that sense, it should be govt policy not to actively discriminate, but also not to have quotas of demographic groups in proportion to the population.

Two whom do you refer advocating that they should have less opportunity?

	27-06-2003 03:42									#27
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YAY!

Another voice of reason... and a liberal, too!

I just realized what I just said

	27-06-2003 03:45									#28
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I agree with elijah. Equal opportuity for success, but not quotas for demographic groups. It should simply not come into the equation. Like that UM thing of giving a numerical points advantage to minorities People should be given jobs/places on the basis of talent and ability, not skin colour. Positive discrimination [sic] is just as bad as negative discrimination, they both discriminate based on sex, colour, creed or religion. That isn't right IMHO.

	27-06-2003 03:53									#29
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quote: Another voice of reason... and a liberal, too! I just realized what I just said

You may say I'm a dreamer...

	27-06-2003 04:04									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp Would someone with more patience than I possess please explain the difference between "Equal OPPORTUNITIES" and communism? He's going to be graduating soon. What the hell has happened to the education system?

Ok, let's see if I can speak for you accurately.

Equal opportunity is something which is impossible to achieve. Even if it was a possibility, success would be determined strictly by ability as skywalker has stated. If success was determined strictly by ability it doesn't follow that the losers would benefit from the system. Communism is a system that recognizes that opportunity can not be equal and that the govt should benefit everyone and treat everyone fairly.