27-06-2003 10:26									#31
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AS - I grew up.

But admit it. Prostitution shouldn't be illegal any more than promiscuous sex WITHOUT an economic aspect should - if it's diseases you are worried about, you should want to illegalize all sex outside of marriage.

	27-06-2003 10:37									#32
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David Floyd:

yeah basically... i think pre-marital sex should become taboo like it used to be... and drilled into people's minds that it is wrong.

hell, i think most married people should stop having sex and make sure who they with is who they can raise kids with what with this ridiculous divorce rate and what not

	27-06-2003 10:38									#33
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and David...

when you grow up, you're supposed to become more conservative... hopefully this is just your early 20's radical stage...

	27-06-2003 10:39									#34
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quote: yeah basically... i think pre-marital sex should become taboo like it used to be... and drilled into people's minds that it is wrong.

But that's a personal belief - do you actually think pre-marital sex should be illegal?

	27-06-2003 10:39									#35
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"Anyone under 20 and not liberal has no heart, and anyone over 40 and not conservative has no brain" - Winston Churchill paraphrase

	27-06-2003 10:43									#36
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David:

well it's very inpractical to make it illegal illegal... i just think it should be taboo (hell, it used to be so it shouldnt be too hard to go back to that) and that people whether married or not should stop having sex for a little bit and get their **** straight

	27-06-2003 10:49									#37
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So, then, you don't actually think prostitution should be illegal, just frowned upon?

Or does your opposition to prostitution involve something other than promiscuous sex?

	27-06-2003 10:53									#38
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yes it involves other things besides disease, etc. i don't care to see women ruining themselves and being reduced to prostitutes... and men can't have respect for ladies if there's prostitutes around because to the man's mind... if one's a whory slut, there's plenty more women who are

	27-06-2003 10:55									#39
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So, essentially, you think prostitution should be illegal because you personally don't like the image of it.

Now is that a good criteria for deciding what should be illegal?

Personally, I don't like prostitution either. But I know that my personal likes and dislikes shouldn't be enforced on others - we should let others make their own decisions, and their own mistakes, and only intervene if they are hurting someone besides themselves.

	27-06-2003 11:00									#40
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what personal likes and dislikes? most americans are against prostitution...

and i dont like this bullshit about letting people make their own mistakes when in today's world, people dont got the chance or the knowledge to make the right decisions. until we do, we got to prevent each other from harming themselves.

	27-06-2003 11:02									#41
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i'm sorry, dave, but the big difference between a conservative and a libertarian is that conservatives care about people.

	27-06-2003 11:07									#42
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quote: what personal likes and dislikes? most americans are against prostitution...

So what? I'm against prostitution, in that I don't think it's a very good idea. But banning prostitution makes no logical sense UNLESS you also want to ban premarital sex. But that doesn't make any sense either, from a point of view concerned with freedom. And good luck finding conservatives who want to ban premarital sex. But if they want to ban prostitution but not premarital sex, they still look silly, so it's sorta a no-win scenario.

quote: and i dont like this bullshit about letting people make their own mistakes when in today's world, people dont got the chance or the knowledge to make the right decisions. until we do, we got to prevent each other from harming themselves.

Oh really? In the United States, most people don't have enough knowledge to realize that having sex with prostitutes JUST MIGHT, MAYBE be unhealthy?

Please.

quote: i'm sorry, dave, but the big difference between a conservative and a libertarian is that conservatives care about people.

Now that's just a silly personal attack.

	27-06-2003 11:15									#43
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quote: So what? I'm against prostitution, in that I don't think it's a very good idea. But banning prostitution makes no logical sense UNLESS you also want to ban premarital sex. But that doesn't make any sense either, from a point of view concerned with freedom. And good luck finding conservatives who want to ban premarital sex. But if they want to ban prostitution but not premarital sex, they still look silly, so it's sorta a no-win scenario.

what are you talking about?

1) prostitution is sex for money... that dont seem abhorrent to you?
2) prostitutes are ruining their lives by keeping them in a cycle of poverty and prostitution (THE reason why people are against prostitution!)

i think those two are good enough reasons to be opposed to prostitution... i have no idea where the hell you're coming from. you're getting bizarre in your thinking, david.

quote: Oh really? In the United States, most people don't have enough knowledge to realize that having sex with prostitutes JUST MIGHT, MAYBE be unhealthy?

no i'm talking about the prostitute herself who did not have nothing to support her and get her through life so she became a prostitute... once everybody got a happy home, people can make their own mistakes... but until then, all you got is the people like us in philly making mistake after mistake cause we don't know better or see it as our only path...

quote: Now that's just a silly personal attack.

i think it's very apt... and libertarians themselves would say that they don't see any need for institutions such as the gov't to help others in any way.

	27-06-2003 11:21									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin It is sort of weird how someone from the inner city doesn't know where to go to get a hooker.

I think its nice.

	27-06-2003 11:22									#45
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quote: what are you talking about? 1) prostitution is sex for money... that dont seem abhorrent to you?

I wouldn't do it, but I'm not gonna tell others that they can't. It isn't hurting me.

quote: 2) prostitutes are ruining their lives by keeping them in a cycle of poverty and prostitution (THE reason why people are against prostitution!)

I don't feel sorry for stupid people. If someone is making them be a prostitute, that isn't an argument against prostitution, but rather one against coercion, so don't even try that argument.

quote: i think those two are good enough reasons to be opposed to prostitution...

Define "opposed". If you mean that those reasons are good reasons to not engage in it yourself, or have sex with prostitutes, then absolutely. If you mean those are reasons to criminalize prostitution, then absolutely not.

quote: no i'm talking about the prostitute herself who did not have nothing to support her and get her through life so she became a prostitute... once everybody got a happy home, people can make their own mistakes... but until then, all you got is the people like us in philly making mistake after mistake cause we don't know better or see it as our only path...

Oh, I see, so again, it comes down to the fact that you think people should be prevented from doing stupid stuff. You are also making an argument that government should baby people and play mommy and daddy to those who are poor, which doesn't sound very conservative to me.

quote: i think it's very apt...

Oh, you were thinking? Well, I guess you see where that gets you.

Pssst. I can do personal attacks too. Now stop.

quote: and libertarians themselves would say that they don't see any need for institutions such as the gov't to help others in any way.

Oh, I certainly see the point of such institutions, I just don't consent to being forced to support them. If you want to have an organization to help the poor or support the homeless, GREAT! Fortunately, organizations for those purposes are already in place, such as Goodwill, the Red Cross, the Salvation Army, etc. Contributing to one of those is your best bet for making an impact - there's no need for more, in most cases.

But don't force me to support your own, personal, moral crusade.

	27-06-2003 11:30									#46
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see this is the thing that i never get about apolyton... some people here got amazingly bizarre views to me. i have never heard anyone in real life argue for such things as legalization of prostitution. this is so odd to me and i got no idea how to respond to your arguements mainly because i got no idea where you're coming from.

this libertarian attitude of they ****ed themselves up, let them stay ****ed is inhumane to me, especially since most of these people who ****ed themselves up are not inherently stupid... they don't deserve to be in the f-ed up position that they're in. it's just without fathers and without no guidance and nothing... they just end up into dealers and sluts and what not. and what happens is that these same dealers and sluts will never take care of their own kids and the cycle just continues.

i demand that something step in and end this cycle

	27-06-2003 11:35									#47
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quote: this libertarian attitude of they ****ed themselves up, let them stay ****ed is inhumane to me

This isn't what I'm saying. My argument is that they ****ed themselves up, but ****ing yourself up shouldn't be illegal. Just don't expect me to fix your **** up. These people have problems. One of those problems is that they expect me to fix their problem for them. But here's the problem - it's not my problem. Sounds cold, but I can't afford to fix other people's lives. I'll donate what I can to charitable organizations - in the absence of taxes, that is, when I can better afford it - but I refuse to be forced.

quote: , especially since most of these people who ****ed themselves up are not inherently stupid... they don't deserve to be in the f-ed up position that they're in.

They don't deserve the consequences of their own actions? Come on.

quote: it's just without fathers and without no guidance and nothing... they just end up into dealers and sluts and what not.

My parents were divorced, and I lived only with my mother. Three of my best friends grew up in single parent homes. None of us fit that stereotype. We do fit the stereotype of being intelligent, some of us extremely so. I wonder if there's a correlation? Hmmm, probably.

quote: i demand that something step in and end this cycle

Then you do it. What are you doing? Talking big?

	27-06-2003 11:43									#48
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David:

i do prefer that people uplift themselves and not rely on gov't programs so in that i agree with you but i can not stand by and let the gov't condone something as vile as prostitution. you might not have a problem with letting (i consider doing nothing to be an action) someone become a prostitute, saying that they are not harming anyone but themselves, but i dont even want them to harm themselves.

and as for you and your friends... thats great. there's hope for people but you know plenty don't see that hope...

and the great thing is that once you can stop the pre-marital sex and what not, all of a sudden all the problems like single mothers and no fathers around and all that will suddenly be gone and then maybe libertarian ideas like legalization of prostitution or a more liberalizing of how sex is treated may be applicable.

	27-06-2003 11:47									#49
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quote: but i can not stand by and let the gov't condone something as vile as prostitution.

The government is condoning nothing - it is simply saying that as long as you don't hurt anyone, it won't even take notice.

quote: you might not have a problem with letting (i consider doing nothing to be an action) someone become a prostitute, saying that they are not harming anyone but themselves, but i dont even want them to harm themselves.

So you also support measures to criminalize tobacco, alcohol, all drugs, caffeine, candy, sugar, tanning, piercings, tattoos, self-mutilation, bungee jumping, sky diving, gun ownership, and other activities/things that have the potential for harm?

quote: there's hope for people but you know plenty don't see that hope...

These people have problems. One of those problems is that they expect me to fix their problem for them. But here's the problem - it's not my problem.

quote: all of a sudden all the problems like single mothers and no fathers around and all that will suddenly be gone

So I guess we're making divorce illegal too?

	27-06-2003 11:57									#50
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quote: The government is condoning nothing - it is simply saying that as long as you don't hurt anyone, it won't even take notice.

that is the definition of condoning aint it? to stand by idly and let bad things happen?

quote: So you also support measures to criminalize tobacco, alcohol, all drugs, caffeine, candy, sugar, tanning, piercings, tattoos, self-mutilation, bungee jumping, sky diving, gun ownership, and other activities/things that have the potential for harm?

a lot of those are inpractical to criminalize... prostitution is illegal now so i'll keep the status quo.

quote: These people have problems. One of those problems is that they expect me to fix their problem for them. But here's the problem - it's not my problem.

no... they only expect you to try to end these bad conditions that are causing them to **** themselves over...

quote: So I guess we're making divorce illegal too?

divorces can be justified sometimes... i just don't like this rampant divorce rate that is going on right now. that needs to stop if we want kids to grow up not holding guns or sucking dicks

	27-06-2003 12:02									#51
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quote: that is the definition of condoning aint it? to stand by idly and let bad things happen?

No, I'd say that to condone something you approve of it.

My position is that I don't care, unless it starts to harm others.

quote: a lot of those are inpractical to criminalize... prostitution is illegal now so i'll keep the status quo.

Sorry, but that's a silly answer. It's the same one I got at a high school leadership conference once when we had a pro Drug War speaker and I grilled him pretty hard. It was an unacceptable answer then, and I called him on it, and it's still an unacceptable answer.

If something is wrong, then it's wrong, regardless of how practical it is or isn't. So I'm looking for a straight answer - would you criminalize those things I listed or not?

quote: no... they only expect you to try to end these bad conditions that are causing them to **** themselves over...

So, basically, they expect me to make their choices for them, or to set things up such that they can't make certain choices. Either way it is coercive, and I refuse to participate.

quote: that needs to stop if we want kids to grow up not holding guns or sucking dicks

What the ****? I assume you are trying to say that homosexuality is a learned behavior - a choice. Obviously it isn't, as any homosexual will tell you. And even if it WERE a learned behavior, what's wrong with it and how's it hurting you?

	27-06-2003 12:13									#52
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quote: No, I'd say that to condone something you approve of it. My position is that I don't care, unless it starts to harm others.

isnt your position equivalent to condoning but i've read what you said before about how doing nothing is not a negative action so i guess we got philosophical differences that wont resolve this.

quote: If something is wrong, then it's wrong, regardless of how practical it is or isn't. So I'm looking for a straight answer - would you criminalize those things I listed or not?

some things are more wrong than others. bungee jumping for example has a relatively low risk of harming yourself or others, especially compared to smoking crack. because of the low risk of bungee jumping, the effort places in criminalizing bungee jumping would not be worth it.

quote: So, basically, they expect me to make their choices for them, or to set things up such that they can't make certain choices. Either way it is coercive, and I refuse to participate.

no... you'd be giving them MORE choices... the child with a happy home got more choices than the one in the broken home

quote: What the ****? I assume you are trying to say that homosexuality is a learned behavior - a choice. Obviously it isn't, as any homosexual will tell you. And even if it WERE a learned behavior, what's wrong with it and how's it hurting you?

what the hell are you talking about? when did i mention homosexuality?

	27-06-2003 12:17									#53
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quote: doing nothing is not a negative action

So you think doing nothing is negative in every case?

quote: because of the low risk of bungee jumping, the effort places in criminalizing bungee jumping would not be worth it.

I could make the same argument for marijuana, but then again, I could just use the "not worth it" argument, too - people are gonna do it no matter what, and marijuana isn't really that harmful, so what's the point.

quote: no... you'd be giving them MORE choices... the child with a happy home got more choices than the one in the broken home

Not necessarily. And in any case, it isn't my place to force you to give people anything. I can donate as much money as I want - this is totally fine. But I can't and shouldn't force you to do so.

quote: what the hell are you talking about? when did i mention homosexuality?

You used the phrase "holding a gun or sucking ****". But you know damn well what you meant, anyway.

	27-06-2003 12:24									#54
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quote: So you think doing nothing is negative in every case?

it is negative if had you done something, a positive result would have happened, but because you didnt do nothing, then a negative result happened so therefore, doing nothing was negative.

quote: I could make the same argument for marijuana, but then again, I could just use the "not worth it" argument, too - people are gonna do it no matter what, and marijuana isn't really that harmful, so what's the point.

i contend that it is harmful. i dont care to see even more people high all the time than there are today...

quote: Not necessarily. And in any case, it isn't my place to force you to give people anything. I can donate as much money as I want - this is totally fine. But I can't and shouldn't force you to do so.

again, i'm not a fan of gov't hand-outs... i am supportive of public education and what not instilling these ideas that i have been talking about such as not having pre-marital sex, not using drugs, etc.

quote: You used the phrase "holding a gun or sucking ****". But you know damn well what you meant, anyway.

oh the sucking **** reference was to a whore. my bad...

(dont you know gay guys take it up the ass? )

	27-06-2003 12:50									#55
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quote: it is negative if had you done something, a positive result would have happened, but because you didnt do nothing, then a negative result happened so therefore, doing nothing was negative.

So your argument is that if by acting you can have a "positive" impact, then you should always act, even without the permission of the person you are trying to help?

quote: i contend that it is harmful.

Really?

quote: i dont care to see even more people high all the time than there are today...

If people are high all the time they'll amount to nothing, and it'll be their fault. You probably can't help those people anyway.

But you really think there is something wrong with getting high at a party once in a while with friends?

quote: again, i'm not a fan of gov't hand-outs... i am supportive of public education and what not instilling these ideas that i have been talking about such as not having pre-marital sex, not using drugs, etc.

So you're obviously in favor of handouts. If you were in favor of voluntary actions instead, you wouldn't push for all of these laws legislating morality

	27-06-2003 16:44									#56
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Prostitution, especially streetwalking, has ill effects on a neighborhood. It definitely decreases property values. In part because of this, the "it harms nobody but the prostitutes" is a bad argument.

The reason why prostitution is illegal in most parts of the US is because most women voters hate it. There is little that will get your average white liberal voting woman going like the prostitution issue.

	27-06-2003 22:36									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer David Floyd: yeah basically... i think pre-marital sex should become taboo like it used to be... and drilled into people's minds that it is wrong.

It was never taboo in this country, even if certain sections of this society frowned upon it. At the tmie of the Revolution, about 1/3rd of all children were being born out of wedlock. It's significantly lower today.

quote: hell, i think most married people should stop having sex and make sure who they with is who they can raise kids with what with this ridiculous divorce rate and what not

What is wrong with you? Did a giant vagina come up and scare you when you were a kid or something?

	27-06-2003 22:44									#58
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Damn. Don't you hate it when the comment you want to make is guaranteed to get you banned?

	27-06-2003 22:46									#59
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all the time, all the time gimp...

	27-06-2003 22:50									#60
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Prostitution, especially streetwalking, has ill effects on a neighborhood. It definitely decreases property values. In part because of this, the "it harms nobody but the prostitutes" is a bad argument.

There are all sorts of businesses we don't want in our neighborhoods. I wouldn't want a slaughterhouse next door, doesn't mean I think we should outlaw slaughterhouses.

You're right about the women keeping it illegal (both conservative and liberals, though it was men that outlawed it).

AS, not all prostitutes are streetwalkers. Like any service, they run the gammut from your petty street vendors to your top of the line Harvard graduates pulling down five figures (monetarily).

It's not prostitution that keeps these women in poverty, it's their pimps. Figure that these woman are making more than what I make, which is $30/hour. Even cheep whores are $50/half an hour. (Crack whores are a whole different story). These women make good money, but the pimp takes the vast majority, keeping these women in poverty and often hooked on drugs.