27-06-2003 12:40									#1
	Space program vs. taking care of mother earth Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

The space program is kind of cool and all, but I really don't support it in any big fashion.

I believe it is just a pipe dream to go to any planet other than mars, and faster than light travel is not possible.

Face it, we are stuck here on earth, and should concentrate on improving it.

Yes I am an environmentalist. Our best bet is not destroying our planet.

Ideally we could do both, but the money is just not there. Shouldn't social programs take priority over the space program?

Doesn't it seem strange we are spending billions on this when people are starving to death all over the world?

Our environment is crap right now, at this rate the human race might not surive another 200 years at this level. The human race may survive, but it will be in much diminished numbers and without the capacity to keep up the standard of living we now have.

where to start. First of all we are running out of fish. I don't know what I'll do without my fish and chips with newcastle Ale . The coral reefs are dying due to global warming and other causes. Species are going endangered or extinct at alarming rates. Lack of biodiversity threatens nearly every eco system on the planet. Populations in the south pacific depend on the rain for drinking water, but global warming has caused their rains to be erratic. Their island is only 15 feet above sea level. They are losing more and more each passing year. Overpopulation in some areas may lead to a new strain of virus that may wipe out huge populations of humans and/or animals.

Last edited by Dis on 27-06-2003 at 12:46

	27-06-2003 12:53									#2
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident Face it, we are stuck here on earth, and should concentrate on improving it.

That's a real positive attitude.

quote: Overpopulation in some areas may lead to a new strain of virus that may wipe out huge populations of humans and/or animals.

That's not a bad thing in and of itself. Are you suggesting that viruses or pandemics aren't part of nature?

I think the more pressing danger with overpopulation is excessive resource consumption.

	27-06-2003 13:03									#3
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Both space and the enviroment are extremely important long and short term investments, but they shouldnt come one at the cost of another.

It's not like the NASA money is taken from the "Save the World Budget". Without NASA, all US Goverment departments(or whatever it's called) would've had 1% bigger budgets and nothing would've changed.

	27-06-2003 14:16									#4
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The space program is extremely important.

We really have to get off this rock.

	27-06-2003 14:44									#5
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The space program is completely unimportant to me.

quote: Shouldn't social programs take priority over the space program?

Pretty much everything, except perhaps daytime television, should take priority over the space program.

	27-06-2003 15:01									#6
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There are more than enough resources to run a bigger space program than currently and also deal with global environmental and social issues. What is missing is not resources but a sufficiently strong perception that environmental and social problems must be tackled and the political will to do so.

Next question?

	27-06-2003 15:15									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident Ideally we could do both, but the money is just not there. Shouldn't social programs take priority over the space program? Doesn't it seem strange we are spending billions on this when people are starving to death all over the world?

Doesn't it seem strange that americans are spending tens of billions of dollars to buy new weaponry when people are starving in america and all over the world?

Shouldn't social and scientific programs take priority over military spending?

You're barking at the wrong tree

	27-06-2003 15:20									#8
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the way i imagine it happenening is the world itself is starving and that any energy to save itself will just wind up killing it.

	27-06-2003 15:26									#9
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I think you are setting up a false dilemma. Money is wasted at all levels of government and at all levels of private enterprise. To say space spending must be cut to pay for environmental or social programmes is to ignore the other programmes money is wasted on.

	27-06-2003 15:29									#10
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We should take a lesson from the myriad extinct species through time:

The more limited you are, whether in environment or geography, the more likely you will wind up dead.

We really, really have to get off this rock.

	27-06-2003 16:13									#11
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Yes, we need to get off this rock.
But who cares if it takes us another 500 or 1000 year to accomplish it ?

	27-06-2003 16:35									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Flandrien Yes, we need to get off this rock. But who cares if it takes us another 500 or 1000 year to accomplish it ?

True. The only thing that matters is that we find a way off to other places we can live before the next big asteriod hits.

	27-06-2003 19:09									#13
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There lies the rub -- when is it coming?

	27-06-2003 19:15									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Flandrien Yes, we need to get off this rock. But who cares if it takes us another 500 or 1000 year to accomplish it ?

from which follows - we should slowly and gradually expand the space program and explore. No crash programs to land humans on Mars, but keep enough investment in manned space program to gradually improve. Most of space program should be unmanned - and most of that should be in programs that have returns here on earth - a limited amount for planetary exploration and pure astronomy - to keep the science going, and satisfy the spirit of exploration. Not enough to gut other important areas on earth.

More or less the status quo.

	27-06-2003 19:22									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Eli Both space and the enviroment are extremely important long and short term investments, but they shouldnt come one at the cost of another. It's not like the NASA money is taken from the "Save the World Budget". Without NASA, all US Goverment departments(or whatever it's called) would've had 1% bigger budgets and nothing would've changed.

Esp. with the NASA budget being badly misused.

	27-06-2003 19:26									#16
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The Space Program is important to me.

It could be also important for the environment, cos aside from Probes to other Planet it gives us also Satellites which observe the Earth and are used to predict weather and gain insights into such things as meteorological Phenomenons or the ocean circulation.
Too much important data which wouldn´t get collected if we hadn´t a space program. Even the exploration of other planets could result in knowledge of our own Planet.

	27-06-2003 19:46									#17
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Also, if we move a whole bunch of us to another planet, we will be able to ease up the pressure on earth. I think that the economics of the moon could potentially sustain a population the size of Germany.

Mars is could also be great. It has much potential that must be developed, slowly, but surely.

Things we must develope to do this include investment of propulsion, and the harnessing of a multitude of thermonuclear reactions.

If we get that energy, the rest will go smoothly as silk.

	27-06-2003 20:00									#18
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I think that while environmental issues are of more direct relevance to human existence, space programs are a very close 2nd. Not only can it supplement environmental data, but it will perhaps give us a chance to colonize and terraform other worlds in case of a global disaster on Earth (which is probably unlikely but possible). Also, scientific data acquired in no/microgravity environments may lead to new discoveries.

	27-06-2003 20:25									#19
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Those who sincerely want to protect mother earth should volonteer for the first trip to the most convenient asteroid where the risk to harm the nature is significantly reduced. :

	27-06-2003 20:33									#20
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Also, our experience in terraforming may have great insights into enviromental engineering on earth.

	27-06-2003 20:39									#21
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quote: Ideally we could do both, but the money is just not there.

definately not!!

	27-06-2003 20:55									#22
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They aren't mutually exclusive Dissident. We can develop more environmentally friendly practices WHILE funding the space program.

	27-06-2003 21:42									#23
	Re: Space program vs. taking care of mother earth Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Dissident The space program is kind of cool and all, but I really don't support it in any big fashion. I believe it is just a pipe dream to go to any planet other than mars, and faster than light travel is not possible. Face it, we are stuck here on earth, and should concentrate on improving it. Yes I am an environmentalist. Our best bet is not destroying our planet. Ideally we could do both, but the money is just not there. Shouldn't social programs take priority over the space program? Doesn't it seem strange we are spending billions on this when people are starving to death all over the world?

There might be a beter solution==> cut military funding all over the world in half and use the other half for scientific research(both to get us in space and of this rock, and make life here beter)

to give an idea about the amount of money we are talking:
Current budget of NASA ~15 Miljard dollar (went up by 5 Miljard IIRC to make shuttles safer)
Current Budget VS military somewhere around 600 Miljard (IIRC)
--> this would mean 300 Miljard extra funding for enviromentalist ideals and space exploration

(personally I would even go for the entire military world budged ... )

Shade

	27-06-2003 22:25									#24
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What's a milijard?

	27-06-2003 22:30									#25
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It's not an either or proposition.

Anyway, if you really want to spend more money on fixing the Earth, spend less on trying to destroy it.

	27-06-2003 22:37									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Paul Hanson What's a milijard?

this could be of use

a Billion here is a million million ...

Shade

	27-06-2003 22:48									#27
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VS military somewhere around 600 Miljard (IIRC)

You don't "IIRC" very well. More like 400 Miljard.

FYI, about $15 billion of that $400 is for military/intelligence space programs. Then consider that the $15 billion that NASA spends is much, much more than any other country (or group of countries) spends on civil space programs. The US spends something like 4x the Europeans.

Anyway, I also reject the false choice in the headline question, but only weighted the space program as moderately important.

	27-06-2003 23:10									#28
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quote: Originally posted by DanS VS military somewhere around 600 Miljard (IIRC) You don't "IIRC" very well. More like 400 Miljard.

It's the same order of size

(about the rest--> same goes for military budged )

Shade

	28-06-2003 09:29									#29
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both are important.

	28-06-2003 11:43									#30
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cut military spending?

realy world folks. Try to stay with us. There are millions of people that want americans dead.

We should protect ourselves.

Damn liberal hippies

And this thread is based on the fact that I feel faster than light travel is impossible- thus making it impossilbe to reach other solar systems with earth like planets. And the fact that long trips in space are not healthy for humans- psychologically. Unless we can somehow find ways to prevent humans from going insane and stir crazy.