15-04-2001 12:09									#1
	Negotiations Remove this text

How come sometimes when I negotiate the options to demand tribute and ask for enemies to withdraw troops are available, and sometimes they're not?

	15-04-2001 16:39									#2
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From my experience

1.) When you are in a democracy you cant demand tribute(republic to?)

2.) you cant demand tribute or demand withdraw during the same negotiation when you make a cease fire or peace treaty. You have to wait a turn unless AI offers to move themselves as part of treaty.

3.) When in alliance you cant demand withdraw

	15-04-2001 16:59									#3
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Yes, you can only ask them to withdraw units when you actually have a peace treaty in place. Which is to say, the turn after the treaty has been established. Trouble is, peace treaties (with AIs) can often, apparently, lapse without you knowing it. Contact an AI you know you're at peace with and you discover you don't have the option to ask them to withdraw. Check the situation in the FM window and discover it has mysteriously transmogrified into a cease fire. Happens all the time.

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	15-04-2001 17:52									#4
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Yes it's to do with democracy and goverment.

	15-04-2001 19:26									#5
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{diplomacy}
{}{SlowThinker}{end1}

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	16-04-2001 01:01									#6
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Also, if an AI Civ has democracy and you have peace with that civ, then the AI arbitrarily changed the status from peace to contact (they simply not recognise the peace treaty any more) and you cannot ask them to leave your territory.

What did you say? They have no right to do that? This is another AI cheat?
Yes! You are absolutely right. It is a AI cheat, and for me it's the one that irritates me the most.

AND, if you contact that particular AI civ and ask for peace again, they may give it or deny it. Either way, they will have forgotten about it the next turn swfting yet agaoi your diplomatic relations from peace to contact.

Edit: this is of course if you are in democracy yourself.
[This message has been edited by paiktis22 (edited April 15, 2001).]

	16-04-2001 04:24									#8
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

What I don't like about democracy is not being able to demand the AI remove troops during cease fires. You can't attack (governemnt problems unless you have staue of liberty). If you let them stay they block resources.

I always try and keep one allied CIV. A small worthless civ. You can contact this bit*h civ and pay them to declare war on the CIV that you want war with. Sometimes it costs a bit but gold is easy to come by in this stage of the game (most of the time). Contact them again and they now ask you to join the fight! Of course I agree to this.

The above is about as deep into the AI diplomacy screens as I get. But it works, every time.

Anyone else know of any neat diplomacy patterns or tricks??

	16-04-2001 05:09									#9
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Demanding tribute will usually also cause the other civ to withdraw their troops, and sometimes they will give you money, too. Of course, be prepared for them to declare war on you also if they think they can get away with it.

	18-04-2001 18:17									#10
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There is a piece of received wisdam to the effect that when you find you can't ask the A1 to withdraw it means they are about to sneak attack.

I have developed a practice of sneak attacking the offending civ first. There is an attack bonus given to the unit which sneak attacks and it is worth having.

If you really can't afford a war with that civ you need to offer them gifts.

MWHC

The neatest diplomacy trick I know is the "Keep them in darkness" manoevre. It is very simple. The A1 likes Republican gov.t. But it is also programmed to hate a human player who is Supreme (most particularly after 1750). All you have to do to drive the aggressive A1 civs out of their preferred Republican gov.t and back to Monarchy is to visit the diplomacy screen and ask to speak to them. What will then often happen is that before you are even told that they will or won't talk to you you get a message that they have revolted. Consul Sitting Bull turns into Chief Siting Bull on the list of leaders and, at the beginning of the next turn you get the message that the Sioux have changed gov.t.

This costs precisely nothing.

The reason I like it is that it is like ju-jitsu, it takes a disadvantage - the programmed hatred for the Supreme human player - and turns it into an advantage - the ability to deny the hating civ it's preferred form of gov.t.

I suspect that the explanation for what happens is that the A1 has the same problem with the doves in its Senate as we do. So, in order to indulge its programmed desire to stick its tongue out at you, it has to get out of representational gov.t.

Anyway, it works. Not, however with all civs - the more civilized and less militaristic ones evidently don't hate enough. Also the effect stops working at some point in time (quite late though).

	18-04-2001 19:37									#11
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EST - interesting post.

The Sneak Attack bonus is a new one to me! Have you a link to a thread or is it something from a strategy guide?

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SG(2)

	18-04-2001 20:39									#12
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Don't recall where I saw the notion posited. Its not in the manual.

But I've worked for some time on the basis that such a bonus exists and am confident that I have won some striking victories when sneak attacking (non vet horse versus legion on hills for example) and I have seen no sneak attack combat which led me to doubt the existence of a bonus. It's harder to be sure about combats where it is the A1 doing the sneak attack but I do feel that units sneak attacking come out, almost always, with less damage than I would generally expect.

If I am right to think that such a bonus does exist that would explain a phenomenon often seen in the game whereby the A1, either in the midst of attacking the human player or while under attack from him offers a truce only, often on their very next turn, to go straight back to war. That would illustrate the programmers exploiting the existence of the bonus.

Such programming can be turned to advantage. Since hearing of the sneak attack bonus theory I have always (when not in representative gov.t) accepted a cease fire or peace offered in the middst of conflict but then, in the very same turn, continued the combat.

My faith in the bonus idea is such that I pick out the toughest battle and undertake that one first (first attack on a city, say).

	18-04-2001 23:59									#13
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

That pre-emptive advantage is useful to know!

In the same spirit - it is always best to undertake diplomacy at the start of a turn - not at the end. If an AI turns nasty you have time to react.

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SG(2)

	19-04-2001 05:28									#14
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EST:

Huh. Most of the time when I use a horseman to sneak attack *anything* sitting in the hills or mountains, my unit gets its arse handed to it on a platter. Then again, I have the Macintosh version of Civ II and, perhaps, just a streak of bad luck when being naughty.

CYBERAmazon

	19-04-2001 15:08									#15
	Inflate your Upload Space

Since this is turning into a thread on sneak attacks, an observation: In ToT, the AI invariably is about to snaeak attack if, in a cease fire:
1) Its government changes, or
2) It, for any reason, grows weary of my insolence

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