28-06-2003 10:42									#31
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So.. it is only a matter of time when Karelia will be ours again... MUhaahahahha

	28-06-2003 10:46									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Mordoch ... The F-22's electronics and radar system also leave the SU-37 in the dust.

I wouldn't disagree with any other part of your post, but this bit misses an important point.

All radar systems are detectable - all planes with radars on show up as dirty great blips to the detection units.

So it might have a great radar - but if it uses it, it's suddenly not stealthy at all.

	28-06-2003 11:07									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy I wouldn't disagree with any other part of your post, but this bit misses an important point. All radar systems are detectable - all planes with radars on show up as dirty great blips to the detection units. So it might have a great radar - but if it uses it, it's suddenly not stealthy at all.

Read my second post. The F-22 has a pasive radar system which avoids showing up as a great blip, it also can take advantage of AWACS and ground support radar and avoid using its own radar at all. Especially with the US Airforce's heavy employment of AWAC support there are plenty of situations where the F-22 can maintain its stealth charactoristics.

	28-06-2003 14:07									#34
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Passive radar? How exactly does that work? I can imagine passive IR sensors, but radar? Normally the enemy plane reflects the radar waves sent out by your own radar - if you don´t emit radar waves, there´s nothing to reflect. Or am I wrong?

	28-06-2003 14:15									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka So.. it is only a matter of time when Karelia will be ours again... MUhaahahahha

What do we have over 10000 of that you dont have any of?

	28-06-2003 14:22									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 What do we have over 10000 of that you dont have any of?

Hot Teen Porn Sites?

	28-06-2003 14:23									#37
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BeBro, I suspect that like passive IR picks up and translates IR data it didn't generate, passive radar picks up and translates reflected signals from other sources.

	28-06-2003 14:32									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Mordoch The S-37 has no stealth charactoristics whatsoever, while the F-22 has the most advanced stealth system in the world.

Nope, the S-37 has got stealth. You just can't find a new prototype fighter without stealth anymore.

quote: Originally posted by Mordoch The F-22 has the supercruise ability, making it the only aircraft in the world able to go at mach speeds without using afterburners.

Why do you think the S-37 has got forward sweeping wings while the F-22 doesn't?

quote: Originally posted by Mordoch The F-22's electronics and radar system also leave the SU-37 in the dust.

Since nobody knows what exactly are the systems like on both, making such a statement is totally meaningless.

	28-06-2003 14:33									#39
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk BeBro, I suspect that like passive IR picks up and translates IR data it didn't generate, passive radar picks up and translates reflected signals from other sources.

Then it's not a radar.

	28-06-2003 15:23									#40
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Then what would you call it?

	28-06-2003 15:41									#41
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Then what would you call it?

Beats me. For starters, you can't determine the range of a target if you are not transmitting.

Okay, not quite. If there's an active source, and you know the precise location of the active source at all times, you can also figure out the distance between you and the target.

	28-06-2003 15:44									#42
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You mean sources like AWACS, drones and satellites?

	28-06-2003 15:49									#43
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Well, first of all, most sources send out directional pulses. That's how you find out the direction of various targets. So that probably excludes AWACS and drones. Satellites are even worse because they move in and out of range all the time. Then movements of these objects make any precise calculations hellish.

Nah, you probably need a specially built fixed ground source.

	28-06-2003 17:11									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Mordoch The F-22 has the supercruise ability, making it the only aircraft in the world able to go at mach speeds without using afterburners. This allows the F-22 to use up far less fuel, allowing it stay at mach speeds for a much greater duration, a very handy ability for intercepting and closing with enemy aircraft.

Actually, the Eurofighter also has supercruise.

	28-06-2003 17:22									#45
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Thanks for the article Lonestar, it was a nice read but I don't buy it. The author seems to underappreciate that little more than a decade ago the USSR ended and Russia was reborn. Finances had to be directed at the civilian economy to ease the transition and help prepare for future economic growth. It's very good that the Russian military has shied away from major new procurements, especially considering that the new equipment is only marginally better than current Russian hardware.

The author is incorrect in stating there is little R&D going on in Russia. Research has led to developments like the MiG 1.42 (dubbed by some as the MiG-35), the Mi-28 attack helicopter, and plasma cloud generation to be used as a stealth device.

As in most countries, the health of the arms industry depends on the health of the non-military economy. If the civilian economy is strong then the government will have funds to purchase new equipment from Russian companies. Domestic Russian purchasing will keep the production cost down allowing exports to remain profitable.

I certainly hope the Russian industry stays healthy. Not just for Russia but for the Third World as well. If Russian industry suffers the Third World will become more dependent on the West, in turn paying higher prices but also having nowhere to turn in the case of Western arms embargoes.

	28-06-2003 18:15									#46
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"in turn paying higher prices but also having nowhere to turn in the case of Western arms embargoes."

Oh what a shame...

I'm no fan of the US conquering and vassalizing every third world nation, but when they do isn't it better when it's a cakewalk?

Can you imagine what Iraq would've been like if the US had faced a powerful air defence with modern fighters and trained pilots?

There would've been much higher casualties on both sides.

Lopsided war is good, it removes hope from the losing side that they can pull an ace so that more people live.

	28-06-2003 20:18									#47
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Tass, good one

	28-06-2003 23:43									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Nope, the S-37 has got stealth. You just can't find a new prototype fighter without stealth anymore. .. Since nobody knows what exactly are the systems like on both, making such a statement is totally meaningless.

Ok, what I saw on stealth for the S-37 was completely theoretical, and more significantly not deployed on the current model of the S-37. If you were ordering a bunch today, you wouldn't get any stealth charactoristics.

On point B, you can read about some of the current features here.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milit...22-avionics.htm

"Included in the Communications/Navigation/Identification (CNI) system is an Inter/Intra-Flight Data Link (IFDL) that allows all F-22s in a flight to share target and system data automatically and without radio calls. The Inter/Intra Flight Data Link is one of the powerful tools that make all F-22s more capable. One of the original objectives for the F-22 was to increase the percentage of fighter pilots who make 'kills'. With the IFDL, each pilot is free to operate more autonomously because, for example, the leader can tell at a glance what his wing man's fuel state is, his weapons remaining, and even the enemy aircraft has targeted. Targets can be automatically prioritized and set up in a shoot list with one button push. A 'shoot' cue in the head up display alerts the pilot to the selected weapon kill parameters and he fires the weapons. Both a pilot's and wing man's missile flight can be monitored on the cockpit displays. Classical tactics based on visual 'tally' (visual identification) and violent formation maneuvers that reduce the wing man to 'hanging on' may have to be rethought in light of such capabilities. This link also allows additional F-22 flights to be added to the net for multi-flight coordinated attack."

	29-06-2003 00:00									#49
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It will be interesting to see how the F-22 integrates with ground based SAMs then.

"Incoming target, no emissions. Do we fire?"

"Yeah, why not. It's either Brit or an F-22 and I hate both both kinds anyway".

	29-06-2003 01:08									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Well, first of all, most sources send out directional pulses. That's how you find out the direction of various targets. So that probably excludes AWACS and drones. Satellites are even worse because they move in and out of range all the time. Then movements of these objects make any precise calculations hellish. Nah, you probably need a specially built fixed ground source.

Most satelites are in a geosychronus orbit... they are above the same point of the earth at all times. I dunno much more than that, but if you need a stationary source of radar, im sure that would work, wouldnt it?

	29-06-2003 01:09									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Seeker "in turn paying higher prices but also having nowhere to turn in the case of Western arms embargoes." Oh what a shame... I'm no fan of the US conquering and vassalizing every third world nation, but when they do isn't it better when it's a cakewalk? Can you imagine what Iraq would've been like if the US had faced a powerful air defence with modern fighters and trained pilots? There would've been much higher casualties on both sides. Lopsided war is good, it removes hope from the losing side that they can pull an ace so that more people live.

It would be nice if the russian defense industry collapsed, tho im not gonna hold my breath

	29-06-2003 01:22									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Kramerman Most satelites are in a geosychronus orbit... they are above the same point of the earth at all times. I dunno much more than that, but if you need a stationary source of radar, im sure that would work, wouldnt it?

It takes minute amounts of adjustment to maintain a geosync orbit. It isn't possible to maintain one indefinitely - plus, of course, the radio waves coming down from above would have much less of being reflected into the receiver system from the target.

	29-06-2003 01:24									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Kramerman It would be nice if the russian defense industry collapsed, tho im not gonna hold my breath

Hey, where would poor countrie´s dictators then get their weapons from? Not everyone can afford fancy western stuff for a little war.

	29-06-2003 01:33									#54
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Hey, were would poor countrie´s dictators then get their weapons from? Not everyone can affort fancy western stuff for a little war.

exactly. they'd have to start their own arms industries... which would be practically 50 years behind... Any conflict with them the US would win with minimal casualties. And judging from bush's track record, war with any of 'em isnt fantasy. like what seeker said, if there is gonna be a war, at least make it quick so its as bloodless as possible.

quote: It takes minute amounts of adjustment to maintain a geosync orbit. It isn't possible to maintain one indefinitely - plus, of course, the radio waves coming down from above would have much less of being reflected into the receiver system from the target.

ah, i see.

	29-06-2003 01:56									#55
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Hey, where would poor countrie´s dictators then get their weapons from? Not everyone can afford fancy western stuff for a little war.

Well, it's not that dictators have problems raising cash to buy military stuff.



Heck, half of our African and South American Bussiness would be lost that way

	29-06-2003 01:56									#56
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Good post, Carver

	29-06-2003 01:58									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Kramerman It would be nice if the russian defense industry collapsed, tho im not gonna hold my breath

Of course, wouldn't it be nice to get rid of any competition whatsoever?

	29-06-2003 02:19									#58
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Of course, wouldn't it be nice to get rid of any competition whatsoever?

absolutely

	29-06-2003 02:23									#59
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Of course, wouldn't it be nice to get rid of any competition whatsoever?

You plan on emasculating the UK, French, Swedish, Swiss, Austrian, Brazilian industries too?

Not to mention IMI or the Germans, arguably the best at making small arms...

What's the matter? I thought competition was good for business?

	29-06-2003 03:26									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy What's the matter? I thought competition was good for business?

In general, it is good. But in particular, it may be deadly.