30-06-2003 04:07									#91
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quote: The breadbasket, yes, the Heart? Under what strange definition?

The Midwest is the heart of America because it is the bastion for the best characteristics of the American people. Ideals, like hard work, thriftiness, modesty and decency, that have disappeared in many areas of the country are still going strong in the Midwest. The Midwest is the soul of America, a throwback to the days before the pressures of modern life destroyed community, family and the rest of old American society.

	30-06-2003 06:46									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten The Midwest is the heart of America because it is the bastion for the best characteristics of the American people. Ideals, like hard work, thriftiness, modesty and decency, that have disappeared in many areas of the country are still going strong in the Midwest. The Midwest is the soul of America, a throwback to the days before the pressures of modern life destroyed community, family and the rest of old American society.

You mean then that the midwest sees itself as a fantasy land that never really existed anywhere in America, and thus claism to be the heart of America even though most of what makes America distinctive has little to do with it?

All those tendancies you stated are common in all agricultural regions. I am sure farmers in the middle of Ethiopia are hard working, thrifty, modest and decent. That does not make them Americans. I am sure the very same tendencies are strong in Switzerland, or Southern France. That does not make them Americans.

As for "old American society", that also included sexism, racism, and countless other things. Thank god it is gone. When people think of Aerica, or the American dream, they think of places like California, or Texas, or New York, NOT Nebraska, or Iowa, or Kansas. There is a reason people talk about "making it" when they make it to the big city.

Think of our founding father, Washington, Franklyn, Hamilton, Jefferson, Adams, madison. Onloy Jefferson would have thought the MIdwest as some sort of American Utopia. Good think the temperment of Hamilton and Franklyn came out ahead. That made the US the greatest world power, not the "values of the Heartland".

	30-06-2003 06:56									#93
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quote: You sometimes do say very funny things Imran..the south runs America?

Um... YEAH! Look at the last two Presidents. The Senate Majority leader (and the last one). Prior House Majority Leaders. The South dominates the politics of the US. Not just Republican but Democrat. Al Gore and Bill Clinton were Southern Democrats. Sam Rayburn, one of the most powerful Democrats since 1950 was a Southern boy. Newt Gingrich of the Republican Revolution in 1994 is a Southerner.

Look at all the Presidents since WW2. Truman - Midwest (or South depending on how you see Missouri), Eisenhower - Midwest (but born in Texas), Kennedy - NorthEast, Johnson - South, Nixon - West, Carter - South, Reagan - Midwest (Illinois), Bush 41 - NorthEast, Clinton - South, Bush 43 - South.

That's 4 out of 10 (using the most liberal standard), 40%, and in the last 40 years it's been 4 out of 7, about 57%.

The House and Senate have always had extremely strong Southern leadership. There has never been a 'NorthEastern' strategy or 'Western' strategy, but I'm sure you've heard of the 'Southern' strategy.

quote: The Northeast and Pacific Northwest/Silicon Valley/Bay Area are the brains. The best academics, tech people, lawyers and financiers. These are also the soul of our little commercial republic. The midwest is the stomach - converting raw material into energy and stuff. They serve both brain and penis, but never can be the boss. The south is the penis of our little republic. Stupid and irrational - i.e. hung up on evangelical mystical crap instead of reason. Moreover, much like a penis it seeks to be the brain. Bush is just a hard-on so to speak - displacing the power of the reasonable people in the country in favor of religious zealots and market fundamentalists.

The President and a great number of the House and Senate leadership (more so than any other part of the country) are from the South. They run things. The brain runs the body and tells it what to do.

The NorthEast is the penis because it thinks it runs things and believes itself to be more important than it is.

The MidAtlantic, MidWest, and West are important organs, as I've said. It's where a majority of the stuff gets done. After all, I'd consider New York to be as important as all of the NorthEast put together.

	30-06-2003 07:02									#94
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Southerners who move out aren't the South.

You never ehar any of those other terms becuase most parts of the country are not seen a monolithic. No one confuses NJ with Mass, but what is the difference between Miss and Alabama and Arkansas?

The Southern states that do matter are increasingly filled more and more with people who could give a rats ass about the "South", like Hispanics in Texas and Florida, and exiled other in Georgia and NC.

I could just as well say that cause Wall Street is in NY, and the business of America is business, that NY is the most important single place in the US. (with Washington DC a close second).

	30-06-2003 07:04									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui The NorthEast is the penis because it thinks it runs things and believes itself to be more important than it is.

Without the Northeast, the rest of this country would be a real dump. Someone really has to subsidize those poverty ridden or boring as hell spots in those areas you think so important.

	30-06-2003 07:04									#96
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quote: No one confuses NJ with Mass

Seeing that New Jersey is a Mid Atlantic state and Massachusettes is a NorthEastern state, I can see why.

quote: I could just as well say that cause Wall Street is in NY, and the business of America is business, that NY is the most important single place in the US. (with Washington DC a close second).

Well duh... and they are both in the MidAtlantic, which I've said are important organs.

quote: The Southern states that do matter are increasingly filled more and more with people who could give a rats ass about the "South", like Hispanics in Texas and Florida, and exiled other in Georgia and NC.

You mean like NYC is filled more and more with people who could give a rats ass about 'the City'?

It just proves the South is more desirable... seeing that is where all the electoral votes (which means people) are moving to... that and the SouthWest.

	30-06-2003 07:07									#97
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quote: Without the Northeast, the rest of this country would be a real dump.

Yes, I'm sure Boston runs things. The city is just a wannabe NYC.

	30-06-2003 07:08									#98
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notice imran put reagan as illinois despite his political career starting in california.

	30-06-2003 07:09									#99
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quote: notice imran put reagan as illinois despite his political career starting in california.

He was born and raised in Illinois. If you use starting political career as where they are from, then where does Eisenhower go?

And Woodrow Wilson... who is ALWAYS considered a Virginian, though his political career started in New Jersey.

	30-06-2003 07:13									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Seeing that New Jersey is a Mid Atlantic state and Massachusettes is a NorthEastern state, I can see why.

Oh, I assumed that you lupmed NY as the NOrtheast. Leave NY and Nj out, and the northeast is nothing more than a small collection of little states, which do not really think they matter.

quote: You mean like NYC is filled more and more with people who could give a rats ass about 'the City'?

Which people who don;t care about the city? Given that this city keep filling itself with immigrants, I can't see where they would be, given that if you don;t like NYC, you move out quickly. Besides, this city has a strange history so people are very parochial and neighboorhood oriented.

quote: It just proves the South is more desirable... seeing that is where all the electoral votes (which means people) are moving to... that and the SouthWest.

More desireable? Only a few states in it are really prizes, like Florida and Texas. Most key battleground states remain in the Midwest, like Ohio, Michigan, and so forth. And if the idea is electoral votes, Cali becomes the most important state in the union, bar none.

	30-06-2003 07:18									#101
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quote: Oh, I assumed that you lupmed NY as the NOrtheast. Leave NY and Nj out, and the northeast is nothing more than a small collection of little states, which do not really think they matter.

Massachusettes sure does think it matters... or maybe that is just Harvard and BC types .

New York and New Jersey can't be in the same catagory as Vermont, New Hampshire, Connecticut, Massachusettes, Rhode Island, and Maine because of the differences in beginnings and different cultures.

Though CT is really more and more a suburb of NYC, so I'm not sure where I'd put that anymore.

quote: Besides, this city has a strange history so people are very parochial and neighboorhood oriented.

Exactly. There are very few who care about 'The City' as a whole... so it doesn't matter if the same is occuring in the South, does it?

quote: More desireable? Only a few states in it are really prizes, like Florida and Texas. Most key battleground states remain in the Midwest, like Ohio, Michigan, and so forth. And if the idea is electoral votes, Cali becomes the most important state in the union, bar none.

No, the idea is INCREASE in electoral votes, showing where people are moving to. The big winners, IIRC, were Arizona (SW), Texas, Florida, Virginia, and, I believe, Georgia. While the Great Lakes, Mid-Atlantic, and NorthEast have lost a ton.

edit: Though a LOT of Florida isn't really 'Southern'. And the South is sometimes broken up into South and Deep South. Deep South consisting of Arkansas and Louisiana to Georgia.

	30-06-2003 07:25									#102
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Imran, you represent politically your state that you were elected to, not the one you grew up in.

	30-06-2003 07:28									#103
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quote: Imran, you represent politically your state that you were elected to, not the one you grew up in.

But your experiences are colored by the state you grew up in. Reagan definetly didn't lead as a Californian would. His policies definetly were colored by his MidWest upbringing.

Just like Wilson, who while Governor of New Jersey was colored by his Virginia upbringing.

And you have to admit, while economically powerful, California doesn't really lead the rest of the country politically in much.

	30-06-2003 07:35									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Exactly. There are very few who care about 'The City' as a whole... so it doesn't matter if the same is occuring in the South, does it?

The centrality of neighborhoods is part of the culture of The City. That is exaclty why people in Queens say they are going to The City when going to Manhattan eventhough they know damn well they live in NYC. There is a guy who is making a killing by selling sweatshirts with neighborhood names sewn in. So there has been no change to the culture, unlike in the South, were outsiders are bringing cultural pressure.

quote: No, the idea is INCREASE in electoral votes, showing where people are moving to. The big winners, IIRC, were Arizona (SW), Texas, Florida, Virginia, and, I believe, Georgia. While the Great Lakes, Mid-Atlantic, and NorthEast have lost a ton. edit: Though a LOT of Florida isn't really 'Southern'. And the South is sometimes broken up into South and Deep South. Deep South consisting of Arkansas and Louisiana to Georgia.

So only Georgia within the deep saouth has made worthwhile gains, while the SouthWest and Florida make gains? When people think of the south, they think deep south plus Kentucky and Tennessee. And even by your reckoning, these areas are not gaining much.

	30-06-2003 07:36									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui And you have to admit, while economically powerful, California doesn't really lead the rest of the country politically in much.

Cali is the pop. culture center of th US, and it's freaky notions of direct democracy are spreading.

	30-06-2003 07:41									#106
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quote: When people think of the south, they think deep south plus Kentucky and Tennessee. And even by your reckoning, these areas are not gaining much.

Don't tell me they don't include Texas in that idea! And Virginia is many times included in the South as well. It happens when you were capital of the Confederacy .

quote: So there has been no change to the culture, unlike in the South, were outsiders are bringing cultural pressure.

There has been as much change to the culture of NYC as there has been to the South. I'm not really sure where you've been, but I don't really see this 'cultural pressure' that is destroying what the South is. If anything the South is accepting these new cultures and integrating them with their own. At least that is what I see in Atlanta and Tennessee, etc.

It's not like you can't tell Atlanta is in the south anymore!

	30-06-2003 07:41									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Imran, you represent politically your state that you were elected to, not the one you grew up in. But your experiences are colored by the state you grew up in. Reagan definetly didn't lead as a Californian would. His policies definetly were colored by his MidWest upbringing. Just like Wilson, who while Governor of New Jersey was colored by his Virginia upbringing. And you have to admit, while economically powerful, California doesn't really lead the rest of the country politically in much.

the thing is though california is a melting pot of people, ideas, culture.

and its damn shame california is as crippled as it is when it comes to political power.

	30-06-2003 07:47									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Don't tell me they don't include Texas in that idea! And Virginia is many times included in the South as well. It happens when you were capital of the Confederacy .

I include Texas in the SouthWest, becuase culturally it is much closer to it than to the South.

quote: There has been as much change to the culture of NYC as there has been to the South. I'm not really sure where you've been, but I don't really see this 'cultural pressure' that is destroying what the South is. If anything the South is accepting these new cultures and integrating them with their own. At least that is what I see in Atlanta and Tennessee, etc. It's not like you can't tell Atlanta is in the south anymore!

I can think how plenty of people might NOT think of Atlanta or Charlotte as good Southern towns anymore.
Of course the overall culture of NYC changes: that is the point of NYC culture, never rest, always change, with every new wave of immigrants. This city is a mishmash of past, present, and possible futures, with little regards for people's sentimentality. Very few things are sacred in this town.

	30-06-2003 07:48									#109
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quote: the thing is though california is a melting pot of people, ideas, culture.

So? The same can be said of New York city (maybe even more so). Yet it has the same political power than Cali does.

Not saying they are unimportant, but that they aren't the most important places, because they don't dominate politics. Instead they have power in the economic realm.

-

GePap: a link

http://www.seacoastonline.com/2002news/9_11revala.htm

Apparently the greatest gains in population were in the SouthWest and Georgia. The second greatest gains were on the Pacific Coast AND Deep South states plus Virginia. Even Arkansas and Tennessee increased by by 13.2 percent to 24.9 percent.

The Midwest seemed to lose population, while the East Coast north of Virginia seemed to stay the same (except Maine).

	30-06-2003 07:50									#110
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quote: I include Texas in the SouthWest, becuase culturally it is much closer to it than to the South.

You have to admit that many people do not though. Bush, for instance, is considered a Southerner... even though he was raised in WEST Texas.

	30-06-2003 07:55									#111
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Bush is considered a Texan, and Texans are a thing of their own, just like anyone from a state so huge it counts all by itself (like Florida, NY and Cali as well).

As for Pop. gains, The south will gain in importance, but so wil the far west. And while the midwest and upper plains are the biggest losers, along with the Northeast, the electoral college will keep giving it more power than its worth.

	30-06-2003 08:01									#112
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That's just the way the Midwest likes it .

You know what I found interesting on the US Census site? In terms of counties which had the most % growth, THREE of the Top 10 are Georgia counties... but most striking is that NONE of them are Atlanta counties (2 are fairly close though). It seems the whole state and not just Atlanta is growing (though Atlanta grew a lot as well).

	30-06-2003 08:09									#113
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It called the suburbs. You must love the traffic. (sucker!)

	30-06-2003 08:10									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui The President and a great number of the House and Senate leadership (more so than any other part of the country) are from the South. They run things. The brain runs the body and tells it what to do.

Nope. The US is in full on penis mode. All the blood had been pooled there since 9/11. The brain has been put on hold.

quote: The NorthEast is the penis because it thinks it runs things and believes itself to be more important than it is.

I was including NY and NJ in the Northeast, but whatever. As for Boston and Cambridge, think biotech and computers. That's brains.

Meanwhile, our penis brethren in the South are among the sanctity of cytoplasm crowd that's putting a damper biotech. Boston has doers. The South has whiners and mouth-breathers.

quote: The MidAtlantic, MidWest, and West are important organs, as I've said. It's where a majority of the stuff gets done. After all, I'd consider New York to be as important as all of the NorthEast put together.

The midwest grows food. That's important, but it doesn't exactly qualify it as the brain. It's the gut - producing energy for people in CA and NY to think.

As for Atlanta growing ... well, stuff tends to grow in armpits when, like the south, you lak hygiene.

	30-06-2003 08:14									#115
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quote: As for Boston and Cambridge, think biotech and computers. That's brains.

They don't run anything. They have no political say. The brain runs things. I'm sorry if your penis runs you... though, I guess that would make sense, seeing as your posts seem to indicate a lack of brain power .

Btw, the South was running this country long before 9/11. Obviously Clinton wasn't in charge during it.

Obviously most of the country thinks the whiners and political nobodies of California and the NorthEast aren't worth their time. They told the South to go be the brains of the operation. The penis of Cali and New England gets to continue to fight for time.

	30-06-2003 08:16									#116
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I think Templar's interpretation is better than your Imran. Passions rule in the South, and passions are much more the province of sex than thinking.

	30-06-2003 08:18									#117
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Oh, notice how all them southeners study at big Northeastern schools, not Southern bastions. Yale, Harvard, there is whewre our presidents go. And Georgetown is run by catholic priests so it hardly counts with the rest of the South.

	30-06-2003 08:20									#118
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See that's your problem . You don't think passions play a part in thinking... in decision making. Of course it's an important part! The brain uses its passion and emotion in decision making! Hell, most of the far left on this site is based on passion, but I wouldn't say they didn't think!

	30-06-2003 08:22									#119
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quote: Oh, notice how all them southeners study at big Northeastern schools, not Southern bastions. Yale, Harvard, there is whewre our presidents go.

When's the last time a Harvard or Yale professor ran the country . It's one thing to be a member of the intelligensia, quite another to actually rule and make the decisions for the country.

	30-06-2003 08:26									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: As for Boston and Cambridge, think biotech and computers. That's brains. They don't run anything.

Irrelevant. They are doing the thinking. Brains do thinking as well as operating the rest of the body. But in a sense they do "run" the nation because they are creating the future. The south is merely running the present. Running it right into the ground.

quote: Obviously most of the country thinks the whiners and political nobodies of California and the NorthEast aren't worth their time. They told the South to go be the brains of the operation.

Back in the 90s, people told NY to make their money grow. Today people tell NY to make their money grow. You know that saying "put your money where your mouth is"? I'll watch where people actually put their stuff at stake. Casting a vote is cheap. CA and the Pacific NW are where much of our tech and entertainment come from. Cultural products. In the long run, that's what matters.