28-06-2003 03:27									#1
	Official Positions Full PM-box? Change here!

While we have 2 polls about the names of these positions, we have not yet polled what these position should be. So far we have 2 options. The first option is the way it was for the nominations:

• Prime Function
  
• Second Function
  
• Military
  
• Science
  
• Social Engineering
  
• Foreign Affairs
  
• Internal Affairs

Last edited by Drogue on 28-06-2003 at 04:07

	28-06-2003 03:33									#2
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Voted for my proposal obviously. I think we will never fill the 7, and we want an occasional contested election. It fits with what exists in the world today, as both the US and UK use a system of 4 main people (Blair, Prescott, Blunkett and Straw in the UK and Bush, Cheney, Powell and Rumsfeld in the US). It menas we have enough to run the faction properly and democratically, but not too many to be burocratic. It means all officials will ave something to do at every stage in the game. IMHO it is the most logical system.

Which do people want to use?

	28-06-2003 04:09									#3
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What's the job description of the Second Function under your proposal?

	28-06-2003 04:27									#4
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Pretty much the same as it is now, except possibly with the addition of techpolls. Basically a fill in for the Prime Function, posting elections and nominations, polling when the director is absent, and filling in when they haven't posted. Exactly what it is now, plus possibly science, although that could be given to internal affairs. Would poll for that. Science is such a small job though, do we need an official just for that? The Second and Prime Fucntion jobs will not change other than that.

	28-06-2003 11:00									#5
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I'll vote for Drogue's proposal as well.

With so few positions, do we need nominations anymore? We could just include everybody in the elections (unless somebody specifically asks to be excluded).

I'm also unclear on the procedure for electing Prime/Second Functions; is everybody entered, as they were with our first elections, or do any contenders have to specifically request an election?

	28-06-2003 17:27									#6
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Drogue, after giving it some thought, your proposal sounds good. There's one minor thing bugging me though. The combination of Second Function and Science doesn't really seem logical to me. Perhaps it could be better to give Science to Internal Affairs and give Social Engineering to the Second Function?
The logic behind it is this: Foreign Affairs, Covert Ops and Military Ops (with the exception of police duties) obviously deal with the interaction between our faction and other factions. Terraforming, base production, workers and science deal with the internal running of our bases. Again logical to group it. Social Engineering though is more than "the internal running of our bases". It deals with the very structure and organisation of our faction itself. Therefore it seems logical not to give it to internal or external affairs (or whatever they are called), but to an official superceding that, who's job is our faction's basic organization. That would of course be the Second Function, who also deals with other organizational duties such as elections.

quote: Pretty much the same as it is now, except possibly with the addition of techpolls. Basically a fill in for the Prime Function, posting elections and nominations, polling when the director is absent, and filling in when they haven't posted.

Does that mean only the responsible director can post official polls on his matter? That would be totally opposite to our current habit. Now it is less strict and everyone is polling the issues he thinks are important. Also, for example you wouldn't have been able to post the urgent PEACE diplomacy polls. May I therefore suggest that everyone is still able to post polls, but that the responsible director has the authority to declare a poll invalid for some reason? Also the director would have the right to break ties on the matters he's responsible for.

Btw, what about governors (Base Functions?)? Will they be reinstated when our faction expands? I can imagine the Internal Affairs/State Function wouldn't want to make detailed lists and orders for eg 20 bases.

	28-06-2003 21:04									#7
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Maniac: I would agree with that, let the Second Function do Social Engineering and the Internal Director do Science. I propose not that only the director in question polls, but that it should usually be them. I think if a poll is needed ASAP then anyone should post it, but where possible, it is better for it to be authorised by the director in question. Nothing strict though, just as a general ethos. As for governors, yes in the future IMHO, but not now. Like with the 1st ACDG, wait until the internal job gets too big, and then add in governors. I agree with your posposal about the role of directors too.

	29-06-2003 07:10									#8
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While everybody could poll or initiate discussion on issues (bringing other perspectives to the table), the directors could specialise a little more, and would pay more attention to what needs polling. For example, if nobody thought about the worker issue in logic loop, the Domestic Functions could be paying special attention to these aspects of our faction, and bring it up.

Sorry for the disjointed speech, but I'm tired.

	29-06-2003 12:18									#9
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Well... since it appears that we've pretty much decided on the new roles and positions, it seems that we should name and hold nominations (or whatever equivalent we decide on) for them. Especially seeing how soon the elections will be being held in.

	29-06-2003 21:41									#10
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(Drogue as elijah again (last post, sorry for the confusion)) Corellion: SIce they were the only 4 positions that people nominated themselves for, then I thought they would stand. DBTS said he would do military and foreign, which is now together. Maniac as Second Function, myself as Prime Function, and yourself as Internal, if that is still ok? If you wish we can re-nominate, but I suspect the results will be identical.

	30-06-2003 00:38									#11
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Fine by me.

Collective Consciousness allows us to settle these things so beautifully, no?

	30-06-2003 01:07									#12
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Yes.

I was thinking about for the constitution, with us being a lot less burocratic than the old DG Peacekeepers, that we shouldn't poll for as much. What I mean is running it more like the UK or US, where big things, such as the next tech, ratifying a treaty or diplomacy or changing SE settings should be polled, but things like terraforming, troop movements and the day to day running should be down to the director in question and the person playing the game (Prime or Second Function). We have a democracy in so far as we elect officials, and vote on major events, but I think the normal, day to day stuff should not need to be polled. We are not a democracy crazy faction like the UNPK, and we are effiecient, whereas polls take time.

I would even go so far as to say that in times of emergency we could have a system where the elected officials make decisions that need to be taken quickly - almost like broad executive power. I think it is very important to keep as many people as possible involved, but in the name of efficiency and accurate roleplay, I think too much polling could also happen. A nice balance.

Anyways, if someone has something they wish to be put into the first draft of the constitution,. please PM or post it in my office, and I will try to include it. Obviously it will just be a draft and would need to be ratified by the faction to be used.

	30-06-2003 02:57									#13
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I would say fewer official polls would be okay, but everybody could still express their opinions on things. Each director could establish a threads for gathering ideas and expressing opinions, which the appropriate director then evaluates. He/she makes the decision on which is the best course of action, and sends it to the Prime and Second Functions (probably through another thread). Of course, the final decision is the Prime Function's, and he (or she, if it changes) has the final say. I believe this allows for the most participation, while still keeping the specific positions useful and keeping an efficient system.

	30-06-2003 03:06									#14
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Of course, the final decision is the Prime Function's, and he (or she, if it changes) has the final say.

Essentially giving the Prime Function a veto power? Isn't that quite too far apart from the tradition of the previous ACDG, which more or less sought to increase efficiency, but also wanted to prevent too much power in the hands of one official?

	30-06-2003 05:09									#15
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Well, I thought for the last ACDG the idea was burocracy, to represent the inefficiency penalty.

However I am against that strong a power in the hands of one individual. Therefore I propose a compromise. If an order is not officially polled (in which case the people's opinions count) then any order has to be agreed by both the director in question and the Priem Function (or Second if the Prime is away). Therefore a director cannot order an action without approval from either the people or the Prime Function, yet the Prime Function cannot act alone. Does that sound ok?

	30-06-2003 05:18									#16
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quote: Well, I thought for the last ACDG the idea was burocracy, to represent the inefficiency penalty.

AFAIK the bureaucratic inefficiency happened automatically. We didn't have to do anything extra for that.

	30-06-2003 05:26									#17
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Ahhh With 11 people, I don't see that as so much of a problem actually, being that we get 5 or 6 in each poll. We have 4 in the government, so I don't see too many inefficiency problems coming to the fore.

	30-06-2003 12:03									#18
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True true.

The compromise is acceptable.