28-06-2003 08:09									#1
	Incredible Computers Remove this text

It came by UPS today. Its amazing when you think about it.

I got a lap top today: It is an HP Pavilion with a 2.66GHz P4. 512K ram. 15" Screen. 40 gig hard drive. And most amazing of all... a 54g wireless conection.

Now I'm not trying to say "look at me" here. Rather I was thinking that so many poly posters are still in school and it just made me think of my first computer. It was an Apple IIe with a green screen and 48K memory...and it was State of the Art!. That was over 20 years ago and it cost $1700. The lap top I'm writing on and about was under $1500.

Where will we be in 20 more years?

	28-06-2003 08:11									#2
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How about a 3.5 K (yes K!) Commodore Vic 20?
It was a bit poor for spreadsheets as it could only display 22 colums of text (less in 'multi colour mode')

	28-06-2003 08:13									#3
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever How about a 3.5 K (yes K!) Commodore Vic 20? It was a bit poor for spreadsheets as it could only display 22 colums of text (less in 'multi colour mode')

I actually remember those! Even then they were considered low end though. Wow. What a distance we have come!

	28-06-2003 08:21									#4
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever How about a 3.5 K (yes K!) Commodore Vic 20? It was a bit poor for spreadsheets as it could only display 22 colums of text (less in 'multi colour mode')

I doubt Plato will want to do a swap with you

Mind you Plato, it's not that far - I mean, although the machine's are a lot better today, I reckon we still have a lot to learn in terms of writing better software and coming up with programs that solve real problems.

20 years? I'm not even sure what I'll be using in 2!

	28-06-2003 08:35									#5
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 I actually remember those! Even then they were considered low end though. Wow. What a distance we have come!

yep they were strictly home machines, the 'Pet' was Commodores high end systems.

we take so much for granted these days, back then it seemed more exciting, working around the hardware restrictions just to get a simple game to run really made you think

	28-06-2003 08:56									#6
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First of all, you have Moore's Law, which states that the number of transistors you can put on the same area of silicon will double every 18 months (was 12 months before amendment). Mind you, this is not a rigorous scientific law, it came from empirical observations. It has been holding so far, but more and more people think that it will breakdown soon.

Right now, ICs are created by photolithography using shortwave UV, but engineers have been pushing the borders in recent years in attempts to make smaller and smaller elements. I think the latest generation at 90nm is probably the last one, or at best, the second last one.

If they want to make even smaller elements, they'll need to use x-ray. The only problem is we don't know how to focus x-ray.

Another problem is heat. In fact modern CPUs are even less energy efficient than lightbulbs.

They probably will need to go to a better material than silicon - electrons don't move very fast in silicon, but the huge advantage of the material is it will form a very good insulator (SiO₂) naturally without any expensive processes.

	28-06-2003 09:02									#7
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512K ram?

you sure about this?

and btw: my jezebel's better. jezebel's my comp. and she's mine. so she's better.

	28-06-2003 09:13									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed 512K ram? you sure about this?

512MB. (Showing my age)

quote: my jezebel's better. jezebel's my comp. and she's mine. so she's better.

Well, I wasn't trying to say that mine was great or anything...just how far we have come. I would never insult your girl (even if she is named jezebel )

	28-06-2003 09:16									#9
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quote: They probably will need to go to a better material than silicon

Seems like I heard a couple of years ago about a gadmium-arsenide(sp?) formula being worked on.

	28-06-2003 09:20									#10
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My first experience was with PONG.

Anyone else play gertrude's secrets???

	28-06-2003 09:20									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy Mind you Plato, it's not that far - I mean, although the machine's are a lot better today, I reckon we still have a lot to learn in terms of writing better software and coming up with programs that solve real problems.

In the eventual evolution of computers I would say that you are correct...we haven't come that far. I have always felt that people solved problems, not software. If people can figure that out then we will truly have advanced!

	28-06-2003 09:23									#12
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 Seems like I heard a couple of years ago about a gadmium-arsenide(sp?) formula being worked on.

I think you are talking about GaAs. It's a much better material than silicon, and is used to make very high speed components. However, you'll need to deposit an insulating layer every iteration, which makes the processes a lot more expensive and complicated.

	28-06-2003 09:29									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I think you are talking about GaAs. It's a much better material than silicon, and is used to make very high speed components. However, you'll need to deposit an insulating layer every iteration, which makes the processes a lot more expensive and complicated.

That makes sense. The article had something to do with super-computers. Cost shouldn't be as much of an issue in that arena.

	28-06-2003 09:33									#14
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quote: Well, I wasn't trying to say that mine was great or anything...just how far we have come. I would never insult your girl (even if she is named jezebel )

well, i have to admit your new girl is faster than mine. mine's still got more ram and hd space.

	28-06-2003 09:33									#15
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 Seems like I heard a couple of years ago about a gadmium-arsenide(sp?) formula being worked on.

Gallium Arsenide. Yup, spot on with the chemical formula Urban.

It is actually used in some components - just not in processors.

	28-06-2003 09:40									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed well, i have to admit your new girl is faster than mine. mine's still got more ram and hd space.

Funny thing is that when my wife ordered this for me, the 2.66GHz was the fastest one they were offering. Checked today and now its 2.8GHz! I just can't believe the explosion in processor speeds that just the last couple of years have shown.

(BTW...Momma always said to go for strong girls as opposed to fast ones! )

	28-06-2003 09:42									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy Gallium Arsenide. Yup, spot on with the chemical formula Urban. It is actually used in some components - just not in processors.

They are getting some interesting stuff coming out from III-V compounds. GaN looks good too.

	28-06-2003 09:48									#18
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plato, i have to admit, yours is a nice svelte laptop. mine's an elegant desktop, but not quite slim.

	28-06-2003 09:54									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger They are getting some interesting stuff coming out from III-V compounds. GaN looks good too.

What's a III-V compound. Is that from the Periodic chart? What is the relationship that makes these so suitable for making chips?

	28-06-2003 09:55									#20
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they're semiconductors. for some reason, those impurities make them run faster, cooler, and better.

	28-06-2003 10:09									#21
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When I got my PC 3 years ago I thought it's 700MHz CPU was very fast. now it is slower than heck with these newer games (Huge maps in Civ3 with 16 civs is torturously slow).

	28-06-2003 10:16									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Odin When I got my PC 3 years ago I thought it's 700MHz CPU was very fast. now it is slower than heck with these newer games (Huge maps in Civ3 with 16 civs is torturously slow).

Civ was the reason I upgraded my 233Mhz MMX and got a 1.6Ghz desktop. It was the fastest thing going...for about a week. Now my laptop is "obsolete" before it even got here in the mail! Where is the upper limit on these processor speed explosions?

	28-06-2003 10:22									#23
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 ... Where is the upper limit on these processor speed explosions?

If you mean basic clock rate and you DON'T have very expensive cryo cooling - I reckon you'd be lucky to hit much about 10Gigs with any sort of semiconductor and electrons. Might not get even that fast. BUT...

There's faster tech than semiconductors and electrons... like photonic and nuclear reasonance...

So... probably not in our lifetimes.

	28-06-2003 10:23									#24
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 It was the fastest thing going...for about a week.

So was mine until the 1giger came out.

	28-06-2003 10:29									#25
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I am waiting for quantum computers. A quantum computer is like a transistor based computer with MILLIONS of CPUs in it, it can prerform millions of operations at once. it can complete a task in 3 minutes what would take 10 BILLION YEARS for a transistor based computer to complete.

	28-06-2003 10:39									#26
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to paraphrase: "i think there is a market for maybe six quantum computers."

	28-06-2003 10:43									#27
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Sounds like Marvin - brain the size of a planet, and they want him to open doors!!!

	28-06-2003 10:46									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed to paraphrase: "i think there is a market for maybe six quantum computers."

Yeah, Like the guy who could imagine the day that every city would have a telephone.

	28-06-2003 11:12									#29
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Right now I'm using a comp with a 350 MHz processor and 64 megabytes of 100 MHz RAM.

If all goes well, in a few months I'll have a machine with a 2 GHz processor and 512 megabytes of 333 MHz RAM.

I can only imagine what the change in speed will feel like. I mean, when this computer was bought (late '98), the average processor frequency was the same as the FSB frequency of processors today... No more waiting three minutes for the hard disk to stop churning when the computer has to both walk and chew bubble gum.

What's more interesting is, that I doubt in the next few years there'll even be that many programs that could benefit from such vast amounts of processing power. Only the newest games will put a serious strain on hardware, and even then usually just on graphics cards.

	28-06-2003 11:37									#30
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 What's a III-V compound. Is that from the Periodic chart?

Yup. III is the third group, or elements with three outermost electrons. They include boron, aluminium, and gallium. V group are elements such as nitrogen, phosphrous, and arsenic.

quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 What is the relationship that makes these so suitable for making chips?

I think that has to do with the electron configuration of these compounds. The faster the free electrons move, the better these materials are.