29-06-2003 02:48									#1
	Is it wrong to clone humans/organs to harvest them? Inflate your Upload Space

People say that no one ever changes other peoples opinions on message boards....... well Kangax on another message board said something which I thought was VERY insightful, and to be honest I am now not sure if I think it is wrong to clone humans for organs......


Kangax said the following:


"So is a cow, but we don't care about killing and eating them for the betterment of the human race. Why should it be any different for a clone? That's a double standard"

Thats a really good point.

I love my dog dearly, and if I had to choose between a total stranger dying painlessly, or my dog, I'd be tempted to choose the stranger.....

Tell me my dog is a dumb animal without a mind or immotions...... totaly untrue, she is very inteligent and shows her effection for me and the rest of my familly.


I think its time we drop the premise that humans are somehow 'special' in that only they have emotions/inteligence, we know that isnt true........

How about the premise that we are looking out for #1, which is why we have no quams about abusing animals, eating them etc..... A baby chimpanzee is as inteligent as a human baby, and just as able to show emotion and manipulate its enviroment.


We arent all that different from animals, so justification of inteligence/emotions dont apply, so the only thing you can say is that we are looking out for ourselves.


Under that premise(individualism seems to be the most popular religion now a days) it seems we can draw two conclusions.....



EITHER: Its time we stop abusing animals, as we arent all that different

OR

Is it all that wrong to clone humans/organs to harvest their organs?

	29-06-2003 03:24									#2
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OR the animals can form their own damned legislature if they want rights. Humans are our own species, and using your own living kind as a toolbox is sick. I think I'd disapprove of harvesting from chimps too, just because of the similarity. Dogs and cattle belong to an entirely different branch of mammal. There's a pretty big difference between ungulates and apes.

	29-06-2003 03:26									#3
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Absolultely it is wrong to raise for clones for organ harvesting. Human rights apply to all human beings, and their dignity and freedom cannot be violated in such a manner.

	29-06-2003 03:32									#4
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I spent a lot of time, pondering this, when I was a bit younger.

Short answer, according to my conclusions, would be no, it's not. I don't want to start arguing about this, however, mainly because of translation problems, so I'll just state my opinion and skip the reasoning.

quote: Tell me my dog is a dumb animal without a mind or immotions...... totaly untrue, she is very inteligent and shows her effection for me and the rest of my familly. I think its time we drop the premise that humans are somehow 'special' in that only they have emotions/inteligence, we know that isnt true........ How about the premise that we are looking out for #1, which is why we have no quams about abusing animals, eating them etc..... A baby chimpanzee is as inteligent as a human baby, and just as able to show emotion and manipulate its enviroment.

	29-06-2003 03:34									#5
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A clone is a genetic copy of another being. They have the same potemtial as the creature they came from. If you assume a HUman being has rights, and that harvesting them for organs is wrong, then saying it's OK for the clone is absurd. Since clones are seperate beings from those they were clonned, even if you think the originator deserved to be harvested (as a frm of punishement for a crime), the same would not apply to the clone.

Only if one drops the notion of the law granting all human beings with inallieble rights can you then start creating clones for harvest.

	29-06-2003 03:36									#6
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I don't agree with this, you see , if we have evolved the ability to dominate this world, and use the animal life as a resource, then let evolution take its place .. Our domination over animals is not a moral issue, no more than the lions when it devours its prey, its simply a fact of evolution.

If we are daft enough to abuse that resource, then evolution will deal us the hand we deserve ..

So I say harvest away .. but ensure that the resource is maintained , or else ...

	29-06-2003 03:37									#7
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It depends....If we are creating full-body clones to harvest their organs, then it is wrong.

But if we are only cloning the body part/organ and not the entire human entity, then it's ok by my book.

	29-06-2003 03:38									#8
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"A baby chimpanzee is as inteligent as a human baby, and just as able to show emotion and manipulate its enviroment."



Something tells me that we won't need to grow another "complete" human just to regenerate a stomach.

	29-06-2003 03:44									#9
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quote: A clone is a genetic copy of another being. They have the same potemtial as the creature they came from. If you assume a HUman being has rights, and that harvesting them for organs is wrong, then saying it's OK for the clone is absurd. Since clones are seperate beings from those they were clonned, even if you think the originator deserved to be harvested (as a frm of punishement for a crime), the same would not apply to the clone. Only if one drops the notion of the law granting all human beings with inallieble rights can you then start creating clones for harvest.

quote: I don't agree with this, you see , if we have evolved the ability to dominate this world, and use the animal life as a resource, then let evolution take its place .. Our domination over animals is not a moral issue, no more than the lions when it devours its prey, its simply a fact of evolution.

Erm, no? Think the letters you've written through.

	29-06-2003 03:49									#10
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Erm, no? Think the letters you've written through.


?? Sorry Tuomerehu .. im not with you ??

	29-06-2003 03:55									#11
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To keep it short, I think your logic is seriously flawed, but I'm way too lazy to start arguing about it (were I a native English speaker, I maybe could sum my thoughts to just a few sentence, with my present skills it would take about fifteen lines -- exactly the same case as the core question of this thread, but in a much smaller scale).

So I thought that you'd realize my points if I'd just asked you to spent some time, reading your own text. Guess I was wrong, then.

	29-06-2003 04:49									#12
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quote: Originally posted by GePap A clone is a genetic copy of another being. They have the same potemtial as the creature they came from.

I just want to point out that this is wrong, for several reasons. One reason is that the DNA is "imprinted" in the womb. Scientists aren't sure how this happens, but it causes the DNA to behave differently (we learned this in bio ). Also, the mitochondrial DNA is different. Finally, conditions in the womb can have significant effects on development.

Regarding the question, I say YES IT IS WRONG YOU SICK PERSON

	29-06-2003 04:52									#13
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I don't care for animals at all (blame childhood trauma) so I'll just sidestep that issue....

....but I do believe that harvesting/cloning organs from basic cells isn't wrong in principle (though harvesting/ cloning entire humans for this purpose would be, IMO).

	29-06-2003 05:02									#14
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Oh, I'd also like to say cloning individual organs I have no problem with. Cloning a person and then cutting them up I do (I hated dissection in bio, luckily due to time contraints we only had a day for it )

	29-06-2003 05:49									#15
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Using stem cells, we can clone the parts we need, and not the whole thing.

	29-06-2003 07:09									#16
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exactly. growing organs is prefectly fine, but growing humans and chopping them up is wrong.

people are people. none of this soul bullshit. raising a person to harvest his organs is horrible.

	29-06-2003 07:10									#17
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oh, and the fact that you'd probably rather have your dog live as opposed to a stranger is horrible.

	29-06-2003 07:14									#18
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"Under that premise(individualism seems to be the most popular religion now a days) "

Well, it sure beats the fvck out of Communism, that's for sure!

I'm still laughing about that chimps/babies line. Truly spoken by one with no experience with either!

	29-06-2003 07:16									#19
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Why are you laughing about that line JohnT? I'm sure there are lots of chimps smarter than some people. You ever watch MTV?

	29-06-2003 07:27									#20
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I'm laughing because there is really no comparison to be made. Human children are so much brighter and capable than a young chimp it's not even close.

	29-06-2003 09:51									#21
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Something tells me that we won't need to grow another "complete" human just to regenerate a stomach.

Yes.

It's far easier to grow just organs from stem cells.

	29-06-2003 09:53									#22
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Human children are so much brighter and capable than a young chimp it's not even close.

That's besides the point.

Suppose one day, some superintelligent aliens come down to earth. Finding humans are much dumber than their youngs, they decide that they can kill us just like cows.

I do not think the degree in intelligence should factor into this.

	29-06-2003 10:01									#23
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If the difference in intelligence between the "superintelligent" aliens and humans is relatively the same as between humans and cows, then they probably won't have moral problems harvesting us. As we don't have problems with the cows.

The point is, the OP is flawed in its assumption that one must "grow" a full human in order to have replacable organs. Even if this were true today, that is no reason to assume that it will be true always.

	29-06-2003 10:06									#24
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I agree with you on that point. We don't need to grow full clones, it's much easier just to grow whole organs.

	29-06-2003 10:07									#25
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I wonder how the debate would spin out if somebody developed the means to grow brainless* clones?

*At least the section that controls speech, thought, language, etc... let them keep the part that does the automatic body functions.

	29-06-2003 10:18									#26
	Re: Is it wrong to clone humans/organs to harvest them? Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Vesayen How about the premise that we are looking out for #1, which is why we have no quams about abusing animals, eating them etc.....

EATING animals is one thing. ABUSING them is another.

Speak for yourself, sicko...

	29-06-2003 10:19									#27
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JohnT,

Suppose you can do that, what are you going to do with the rest of the body after you remove the heart or the stomach?

	29-06-2003 10:22									#28
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Uh, maybe we can use them to power the global supercomputer? Let's just make sure that bastard Keanu doesn't figure this out...

	29-06-2003 11:20									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy EATING animals is one thing. ABUSING them is another. Speak for yourself, sicko...

HEY, you took MY line.

I don't mind eating animals, but they should be euthanized before being butchered. Jeez, don't let the animal suffer, like cutting off a chicken's head and letting the body run around, that is just wrong.