29-06-2003 05:02									#1
	How did the 'Lakota' become the 'Sioux'? Suffering from ads?

Now, English is known for butchering place names (I guess every civilization is, really), such as calling Mumbai, Bombay... but usually it is within the realm of reason... except one:

How in the Hell do we get 'Sioux' from 'Lakota'? I've been wondering about this, but never posted the query until I just got the Special Edition DVD of 'Dances with Wolves'. Anyone got an answer?

(Yes, I know, this has MtG's name all over it ).

	29-06-2003 05:06									#2
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Spin doctors and a good PR campaign.

EDIT: I could be wrong... but I think the Lakota were part of the Sioux nation. Sometimes a "tribe" had a lot of sub tribes in it...

	29-06-2003 05:11									#3
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quote: I could be wrong... but I think the Lakota were part of the Sioux nation. Sometimes a "tribe" had a lot of sub tribes in it...

Perhaps, but a lot of places I see it both terms as interchangable. Perhaps that is an error of English too .

	29-06-2003 05:29									#4
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Isn't Sioux the french name for them?

	29-06-2003 05:33									#5
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Sioux is a Tribe. Lakota is a clan within the Tribe structure.
Many Tribes were this way, including the Apache and Comanche.

	29-06-2003 05:42									#6
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This isn't about Sioux, since Sioux weren't in Texas, but you'll see reference to sub-groups.

http://www.lsjunction.com/places/indians.htm

	29-06-2003 06:08									#7
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Sioux is a Tribe. Lakota is a clan within the Tribe structure. Many Tribes were this way, including the Apache and Comanche.

bbbbzzzzzzztttt!! The Entire nation refered to themselves as "The Lakota".

I suspect they came to be know as the Sioux the same way a bunch of Tribes got their names for the Anglos...

White Explorer: 'Kay, ....and what's the names of the guys over the mountains?

Indian: You mean the Babyeating Horse-rapers who piss upstream?

WE: How do you spell that?

Indian: "Sioux"

	29-06-2003 06:10									#8
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but isnt Sioux french? I doubt any anglo settlers would have heard, "Sue" and spelt it like Sioux...

	29-06-2003 06:16									#9
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Sioux is a shortened form of a name french trappers gave them on initial contact with the eastern Lakhota (more accurate to the pronunciation.) It was a bastardization of a Ojibway word "nadowisou" meaning "snake" or "enemy." Originally it was pronounced something like Nadeausioux or something like that, then just shortened to "Sioux." Early American mountain men often referred to them as "snakes" in English, having learned the Ojibway meaning in trading with the Ojibway and learning some of their language.

There were seven original tribes (the Oceti sakowin) in the Dakhota nation, originally native to the Minnesota woods and lakes. As they migrated south and west, their language split into three dialects, and several of the original tribes split further as they moved apart during the majority of the year. Many of those are further traditionally split along clan lines into separate bands. The US simply lumped all speakers of the Dakhota language under the category Sioux, which doesn't really make much sense, considering their diversity of lifestyle and range of habitat - from nomadic plains hunters, to riverside farmers who hunted supplementally, to forest hunter/gatherers and fishermen.

The three main dialects of the Dakhota language are Dakhota, Nakhota and Lakhota (by far the most commonly spoken, and the one I know to some extent). Dakhota is spoken by the eastern "woodland" tribes known as the Isanyati (Santee) (Isanyati is the Dakhota dialect name, Lakhota call them Isanti). They are the four tribes of the Isanyati - the Mdewakantonwan (Spirit Lake people), Wahpekute (Shooters among the leaves), Sissetonwan (Fishing grounds people) and Wahpehtonwan (People who dwell amont the leaves). These names all pretty much show their Minnesota lake and forest origins.

The Wiceyala, were the eastern plains tribes (Nakhota speaking) of the Yanktonai, and Yankton. Nakhota is almost a dead dialect, due to reservations shuffling of the survivors of these two bands into Teton (Plains dwellers) reservations.

The Lakhota dialect speakers (Teton) are the best known because of their leaders and the general pain in the ass they were to the US Army and politicians, from Mahpiua Luta (Red Cloud) an Itesica clan Oglala, Tashunka Witko (means Dancing Horse, but mistranslated as Crazy Horse, son of an Oglala father and Sicangu mother, Pizi (Gall), leader of the Hunkpapa at the Little Bighorn, and of course, Tatanka Iyotanka, aka Sitting Bull, an Hunkpapa later elected great chief of all the Teton.

They are the Oglala (Dust scatterers), Sicangu (also known as Brule from another foreign bastardization) (Burnt thighs), Hunkpapa (End of the circle - from their position in the great nation encampments as the guards), Miniconjou (Stream side planters), Sihisapa (Blackfeet, but this is not the same as the tribe in Idaho/Wyoming known as Blackfeet), Itazipacola (named by the French trappers Sans Arc - without bows, the same meaning as the Lakhota name), Oohenupa (Two kettles).

Although the reservation system has completely changed and jumbled their different original lifestyles and they speak similar very similar dialects of a common language, it's extremely inaccurate to consider them a single tribe or nation as is commonplace now.

	29-06-2003 06:19									#10
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Sioux is a shortened form of a name french trappers gave them on initial contact with the eastern Lakhota (more accurate to the pronunciation.) It was a bastardization of a Ojibway word meaning "snake" or "enemy." Early American mountain men often referred to them as "snakes." .

BAM! Hole in one, Lonestar.

	29-06-2003 06:21									#11
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MtG:

why do i got a feeling that you didn't just copy and paste that but pulled that out of your memory? that would be pretty damn amazing if you knew that without looking it up.

	29-06-2003 06:22									#12
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Basically, yeah.

Quite often we learned one tribe's pet name for it's enemies. Although I don't know of any quite called the "Babyeating horse-rapers who piss upstream."

The Oglalla clan names for themselves are pretty entertaining though.

	29-06-2003 06:22									#13
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quote: Sioux is a shortened form of a name french trappers gave them

Hole in one, Albert

	29-06-2003 06:25									#14
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Thank you, MtG . I knew this was a question that had your name on it .

	29-06-2003 06:25									#15
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quote: How did the 'Lakota' become the 'Sioux'?

The United States massacred all of them and then forgot what their real name was.

	29-06-2003 06:26									#16
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Sava:

to be fair, they killed plenty of American settlers and soldiers...

	29-06-2003 06:27									#17
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quote: to be fair, they killed plenty of American settlers and soldiers...

I'd slaughter people if they stole my land.

	29-06-2003 06:30									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Sava The United States massacred all of them and then forgot what their real name was.

And this is different from every other war of conquest and settlement in History how?

	29-06-2003 06:31									#19
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quote: And this is different from every other war of conquest and settlement in History how?

Don't we call Nazis "evil" for doing the same thing?

	29-06-2003 06:31									#20
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I forget, Sava, are you pro-Palestinian?

	29-06-2003 06:34									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer MtG: why do i got a feeling that you didn't just copy and paste that but pulled that out of your memory? that would be pretty damn amazing if you knew that without looking it up.

I used to do a fair amount of work for tribal utilities, including communications, internet, and general utility planning. Working with several Lakhota groups, I learned a fair bit of their language, and found it real helpful to make a point to learn more, so when you're in council and tribal government meetings, you can understand what's being said on the side.

I also speak a little Tsitsista (Cheyenne), Apache and Tohono O'Odham. (Papago, native to the southern Arizona desert west of Tucson. The Tohono O'Odham are probably descendants of the mysteriously disappeared Anasazi who left cliff dwellings and structures all over New Mexico and Arizona, and disappeared somewhere around 900 years ago.

I know more about the Lakhota also because of an early interest in the history of their warfare against the US.

	29-06-2003 06:35									#22
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quote: I forget, Sava, are you pro-Palestinian?

Yes.

	29-06-2003 06:36									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Don't we call Nazis "evil" for doing the same thing?

I doubt it's because of that Sava - more likely because they lost.

Winners generally get seen as the good guys... even if they're just human beings, part good and part bad.

	29-06-2003 06:37									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Sava The United States massacred all of them and then forgot what their real name was.

Actually, there's almost a hundred thousand of them, depending on if you count mixed-blood Lakhota-washichu types. I'm just counting offically registered as Lakhota.

	29-06-2003 06:37									#25
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Sava:

I don't know... I searched on apolyton with Sava as the user-name and Israel in the other field, and it seems that you seem to think of Palestinians as murderous thugs? have you changed? or am I mis-reading your posts?

	29-06-2003 06:37									#26
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quote: I doubt it's because of that Sava - more likely because they lost.

Funny, I thought people thought Nazis were evil because they murdered millions of people...

	29-06-2003 06:37									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Don't we call Nazis "evil" for doing the same thing?

We never had a trueblue "Final Solution".

I must commend you, however, for bringing up anything and everything that's bad with the country in every thread. Is there anything that has to do with America that you like?

	29-06-2003 06:38									#28
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quote: have you changed? or am I mis-reading your posts?

You're equating Palestinian terrorists with innocent Palestinians... there's at least one of your "mistakes".

	29-06-2003 06:40									#29
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quote: We never had a trueblue "Final Solution".

You're living in it bub. Not a damn "injun" around. God bless America, eh?

quote: I must commend you, however, for bringing up anything and everything that's bad with the country in every thread. Is there anything that has to do with America that you like?

Sure, America taught me about things like Democracy, freedom, and equality. So well that I realized it was bullsh1tting me when it told me America stood for such things.

	29-06-2003 06:41									#30
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So those Sioux warriors weren't justified in killing settlers...

funny, only a few minutes ago, after I said, "to be fair, they killed plenty of American settlers and soldiers...", you responded with, "I'd slaughter people if they stole my land." as if saying that they were justified...