30-06-2003 05:52									#1
	An end-game tech suggestion Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Now I know there are reasons for it, but if possible I'd like to be able to limit the advance of technology to the information age without the "end-all" technologies.

Because lets face it, once somebody has AI and a fair enough economy, the game is over. It would be nice if there was an option to proceed up the tech tree all the way except the end-game technologies.

If games last until information age, it sort of boils down to "who can get AI first"

My suggestion would be to add another category to the "end age" selection on the multiplayer screen being "Full tech tree" for the tech tree as it is now in standard games, whereas there would be "information age" for games that end the tech tree without the all-powerful techs.

thoughts?

	30-06-2003 06:28									#2
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Excellent idea!

Maybe they can include this in the next patch.

	30-06-2003 07:27									#3
	Inflate your Upload Space

AI is NOT that powerful. It's a very overrated tech, and here's why.

AI produces units with "no" build-time. Well there is a build-time on those units, it's just really small. The time to build is about 1 second on Assault Infantry. If you build that same guy wihout AI you'd be required to wait about 10 seconds.

Build more barracks and AI is worthless. You should always have at least 3 that you have built anyway unless you suck (and this is in information age btw), I usually have 4 throughout the game. When you assimilate a city the martial buildings do eventually becomes yours too (although they don't automatically become so like the civic buildings [grainary, farm, library, etc]) so if you're not a turtler then you can concievable capture at least 2 or 3 by information age anyway. 7 barracks counteracts AI easily.

Anyone with even a half-way decent economy and a half-way decent build strategy will be able to counteract AI. AI is simply a luxury, so you can just click unit and press Q and have a big military.

I play games against Tough and Tougher comps (no Toughest, haven't had the chance to do it yet) and I still only lose 30-40 units the entire game (yes, all the way to information age). I don't research AI - why would I need it? I'm always at the pop cap anyway, and simply pressing F1 (my hotkey for barracks) and clicking the Assault Infantry button one time will refill any slots I have missing.

- PTM

	30-06-2003 08:13									#4
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Battle A. Player A and Player B lose all their units. Player A has AI, player B does not. Player A proceeds to recreate army in 10 seconds while Player B must produce units very slowly, possibly taking up to 3-5 minutes to get back up to strength.

No advantage?

Player A can have his whole army plus change back in Player B's territory before player B even has half of the force back.

The initiative alone is entirely in Player A's favor no matter what. The damage will all be done in Player B's territory.

An especially good tactic is to use AI to create missiles and devestate the opponent's economy at the same time. Do you honestly think you can keep your economy up when it's raining cruise missiles at a rate of 1 every 5 seconds on your oil and iron supplies?

There is no contest. The player with AI wins given their economy is relatively in tact (ie about +200 of everything).

Furthermore that player can quickly rebuild the economy after a nuclear strike (although no more so than the Chinese).

	30-06-2003 09:21									#5
	Full PM-box? Change here!

All of the end-game techs were designed to assist in ENDING the game so it doesn't drag out ... forever. If you don't like Info Age, end the game beforehand, either by winning first or by ending with Modern Age and go without those modern armor and missile artillery.

	30-06-2003 09:46									#6
	Inflate your Upload Space

Huh? I'm playing a game at the moment where I set it in preference not to go beyond the classical age. Using preferences doesn't fix the problem?

	30-06-2003 10:45									#7
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by DarthVeda Battle A. Player A and Player B lose all their units. Player A has AI, player B does not. Player A proceeds to recreate army in 10 seconds while Player B must produce units very slowly, possibly taking up to 3-5 minutes to get back up to strength. No advantage?

Then don't lose your army...?

Flanking damage and supply truck/general targeting, coupled with spy usage and sniping will be the key to winning, not crappy end-game techs. Trust me, you deserve to lose if you lose all your army in a single battle...

- PTM

	01-07-2003 10:55									#8
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

If you honestly believe you can win a game against an opponent with AI and you do not have AI and you're both on the same economic footing... you are out of your mind.

	01-07-2003 11:33									#9
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by DarthVeda If you honestly believe you can win a game against an opponent with AI and you do not have AI and you're both on the same economic footing... you are out of your mind.

You don't play enough RoN. End-game techs aren't designed to determine the game, and they follow that rule quite well.

If you have any strategy at all, try targeting his production buildings and try NOT LOSING YOUR ARMY. If you play well you should be killing his army at a ratio of at least 4:1. Keep that up and the pop cap will make sure you won't be overwhelmed by his army because your reinforcements, although recieved somewhat slower, will keep you at the max while his AI keeps him at the max. Since you kill more you won't need to build as many as he does, and he's spending more resources so...

Don't criticize end-game techs or assign them too much power because you'd be dead wrong to do so. Sure things like AI are a pain and you might feel like you're going to have to work harder but that's all - it's not like "uh oh AI I quit."

And yes I have won games against people with AI whilst not having it myself. It is NOT that useful, and if you think you're losing solely because of that then your strategy needs adjustment or you need more practice.

(I'm not condescending I'm just offering a perspective).

- PTM

	01-07-2003 12:52									#10
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Of the 4 ending techs, only World Government has the true face of "game ending" written on it. Capture your opponent's capital for a split second—BAM, you defeat him (and win the game if he's the last opponent left); get 70% territory (or whatever you choose) exactly—BAM, you win. Get the required wonder points—again BAM.

Of course, as with all the other techs, you have to know when to use it in order to use it properly. I played a game last night where I won because I researched World Government while we had a wonder point lead (I had the Supercollider, too; always helps ). Anyway, it's all in how you use the tech to help you along (or defeat that particular purpose, with the knowledge you spend on the tech, you could easily produce mass quantities of Cruise Missiles or a few Nukes to hammer his production capabilites).

	01-07-2003 18:49									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by PTM If you have any strategy at all, try targeting his production buildings and try NOT LOSING YOUR ARMY. If you play well you should be killing his army at a ratio of at least 4:1. Keep that up and the pop cap will make sure you won't be overwhelmed by his army because your reinforcements, although recieved somewhat slower, will keep you at the max while his AI keeps him at the max. Since you kill more you won't need to build as many as he does, and he's spending more resources so...

Against the AI, I would agree with you, I believe the discussion here is for battling against an opponent of equal ability. IE, one that will kill you just as quickly using all of the methods you have already mentioned: general/supply sniping, spies, targeting economy, ect. Given otherwise equal footing, AI can indeed swing the pendulum in the favor of the one who has it first.

Against the AI, though, um...AI...is a lower priority for myself as well. 4-6 barracks, etc, do tend to make it less drastic of an improvement, but if you are going against a good opponent, he should be launching missiles against those barracks and your economy, making AI more of a priority.

	02-07-2003 00:52									#12
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by DarthVeda Battle A. Player A and Player B lose all their units. Player A has AI, player B does not. Player A proceeds to recreate army in 10 seconds while Player B must produce units very slowly, possibly taking up to 3-5 minutes to get back up to strength. No advantage?

if you got AI, and i didnt, what did i get with the extra goods? more units? the super commerce tech (raised pop limits, +999 res).

AI is overrated in my eyes.

	02-07-2003 01:47									#13
	Remove this text

AI + cruise missiles = Death

There is no counter to that without Missile Shield and your research is better spent on AI. Your economy will be crippled in a matter of minutes as your military production facilities, mines, oil supplies, wonders, and libraries go up in flames. There is no way to shoot the missiles down. All it takes is one silo to ruin your day. I won't even talk about nukes.

As soon as Ron Oracle gets back on its feet I'll upload a replay from this weekend that will prove my point that AI is a game ender and he who has exclusive control of AI will win (or at the very least make it impossible for others to win no matter the odds).

-=-=-=-

But my original point stands, I would like a way to disable game ending technologies without disabling the information age. I like to have games that last four to six hours. And I'm not alone. Honest.

And as it stands thats impossible to do with nukes (being fixed in the next patch) and AI (still unresolved)

Last edited by DarthVeda on 02-07-2003 at 02:02

	02-07-2003 03:38									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Agreed. The multiplayer setup is perfect if not for the absence of an option to exclude "supertechs" from the game.

I am keeping my fingers crossed. As it is, I usually sit in and moderate on a huge map with friends. Since I rule them, I'm able to reach nukes way before they can. We mutually agree not to research supertechs, and if anyone does I rain down nukes on their territory.

=D The moderation seems to work pretty well. It sure beats observer mode!

	02-07-2003 19:58									#15
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Moved to strategy...........

RAH

	03-07-2003 04:30									#16
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

*grumbles about the move* Hey! This doesn't look like the suggestion forum!

anyway my recorded game should be up sometime in the near future at www.ronoracle.com if anybody is interested