30-06-2003 16:38									#1
	Maybe Bush Wasn't Lying about WoMD? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

http://slate.msn.com/id/2084988/

Didn't read it yet, but might as well post it.

	30-06-2003 17:16									#2
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Misinterpreting the Evidences for and against WMDs, because they wanted to believe there were any?

Yes, could be a possible explanation.
The tendency of humans to misinterpret evidences to fit their own beliefs (or their own theory about the world) is one of the reasons, why Scientists introduced Double Blind Experiments as a standard experimental procedure.

	30-06-2003 17:27									#3
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What Proteus said!

However, Iraq was probably the most heavily monitored piece of land on the planet betwen Gulf War I and Gulf War II. I find it hard to believe that they saw WMD but could track them, even some! Couple that with the shady (at best) evidence before the war, and one becomes suspicious that they didnt know they were there in the first place.

In that case, if we didnt go to war on a lie, we certainly went on a speculation.

	30-06-2003 18:05									#4
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I hardly doubt that there were WoMDs in Iraq, just as US and UK stated.

I also hardly doubt that Saddam used the several months time during the inspections and before for quickly disposing, hiding and dissimilating any traces of it. He knew he was facing defeat and hoped to entangle US and UK in big moral troubles once they can't find the evidence.

Iran and Syria and Russia were probably very eager assistants as they all are very much against US interference in the ME and against possible "reigning in" of the chaotic totalitarian governments in the ME.

	30-06-2003 18:33									#5
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Am I wrong or a missile gap with the SSSR was slightly more dangerous than a threat by an Iraq exausted after a 12 years embargo ?

	01-07-2003 06:25									#6
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Jeez man!
Nobody worries about missile gaps anymore

In fact, no one with half a brain ever worried about them

	01-07-2003 06:53									#7
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I still have questions about the true objectives of this mid-east campaign, Oil/money arguement versus the weakness of the evidence political fumble.

	01-07-2003 07:48									#8
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quote: Jeez man! Nobody worries about missile gaps anymore In fact, no one with half a brain ever worried about them

that's right. we all worried about a mine shaft gap.

i can buy that the administration believed what they said. unfortunately, i don't think it's enough. had they made the basis of the invasion on some other grounds, i wouldn't have as big of a problem with it now--particularly when i didn't before.

	01-07-2003 20:17									#9
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For a different perspective see THIS article from Sunday's Washington Post. In it, Rolf Eckeus, head of UNSCOM from 1991-1997, argues that we may not find stored weapons of mass destruction because the Iraqis were not able to develop pure enough agents to keep them from decaying. Instead, Eckeus argues, the Iraqis developed production methods which could brought to bear on fairly short notice if needed. Comments?

edit: typos

	01-07-2003 21:02									#10
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We have yet to find the production facilities.I mean, how small could they be, to porduce weapons in quantities that make them usefull in war? (very large amounts)

But even if this is the case, while it shows Iraq in violation of resolutions, it still is not the same as saying large stockpiles existed at the moment, which was the claim made and the justification given.

A importantly, were are the ties to Al Qaeda?

	01-07-2003 21:18									#11
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quote: Originally posted by GePap We have yet to find the production facilities.I mean, how small could they be, to porduce weapons in quantities that make them usefull in war? (very large amounts)

For war, it is clear that they did not have the facilities. For terror operations, it's a different story. Again, we know that Saddam did in fact possess large quantities of WMD at one time and that the entire stockpile is not accounted for. A control freak like Saddam doesn't simply lose track of such things.

quote: A importantly, were are the ties to Al Qaeda?

Tenuous at best. The last thing Saddam wanted was fundies with WMD within his borders. With the post war emergence of Iranian agents in Iraq, it's clear that there were at least some fundie cells that Saddam hadn't cracked. A more interesting question now is what is the Iran/Al Qaeda link.

	01-07-2003 21:55									#12
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Iraq probably moved all the WOD to NK. Reason enough to blow NK off the planet. The build up should start as ASAP.

	01-07-2003 21:57									#13
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quote: the Iraqis developed production methods which could brought to bear on fairly short notice if needed.

Still a far cry indeed from a pressing, imminent threat to the United States (won't even mention the lack of means of delivery).

Even farther from a justification for invasion.

	01-07-2003 22:55									#14
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Exactly how many WoMD does the USA own? What right do they have to own them that others dont? Not strictly related, but its a relevant question.

We have all become so caught up in the USA in its illegitimate role as "international policeman" that we have forgotten that it is merely another nation, no more or less valid than any other. Couple that with the fact that a recent BBC poll showed the USA to be the greatest threat to international peace, second only to Al Qaeda, but then, the latter is incapable of causing serious collatoral damage.

	01-07-2003 23:07									#15
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quote: We have all become so caught up in the USA in its illegitimate role as "international policeman" that we have forgotten that it is merely another nation, no more or less valid than any other.

it's not "merely another nation", but rather a regional hegemon.

regional hegemons will do everything to increase their power, including crushing minor powers to demonstrate its strength, as well as seeking to find ways to consistently reduce the ability of other potential hegemons to become hegemons themselves.

swatting iraq and afghanistan aside sends a strong message to threats against the united states, as well as giving the united states more places from which it can exert pressure on minor and major powers such as china and iran.

	01-07-2003 23:08									#16
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besides, who defines what is illegitimate or not? the victor. who's the victor?

	01-07-2003 23:40									#17
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if he didn't lie, he's responsible for the intelligence failures...

	01-07-2003 23:44									#18
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he's not personally responsible for the intelligence failures.

what he will be responsible for is overstating the case for war, to the point of exaggerating the danger the united states was in, thereby putting american lives at risk for no substantial gain.