01-07-2003 11:53									#31
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Many people here are assuming women, all women, are inherently weaker than men. To beign with, that is not true, there is a range, so there are plenty of womne physically tougher than plenty of men. Are women on average weaker? certainly, but if the problem here is "hitting someone who is 'weak'", then it must apply to weak men as well, if the issue is just 'the strong' vs the weak.

I agree with your statement, but not with the implied range of the "many"

I find it doubtful that even one percent of women are as dangerous in unarmed combat as the average man.

	01-07-2003 11:54									#32
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Have you ever let a girl punch you? Most would be lucky to be able to break your nose if you let them wale on your face for a few minutes...

	01-07-2003 12:00									#33
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I find it doubtful that even one percent of women are as dangerous in unarmed combat as the average man.

Only becuase of training. I would bet on a woman with several weeks of self-defense classes over any man without any fomr of training. Plus men have a few weak spots, like the genitals. If a woman gets a good, swift and strong kick there, the man is down, and women know this and aim there, while guys generally do not (we know how painfull it is).

quote: Have you ever let a girl punch you? Most would be lucky to be able to break your nose if you let them wale on your face for a few minutes...

You guys assume a "guys fight" with punching, why not a "kick him in the nuts, bite him hard and draw blood, and then cut him with somehting sharp" kind of fight?

	01-07-2003 12:07									#34
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actually american women can be strong- especially since most of them are fat

Most who have grown up with brothers know how to defend themselves.

And I don't think women are that weak. I think their strenght is like only 33% or maybe 50% less than the average man's.

	01-07-2003 12:08									#35
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Only becuase of training. I would bet on a woman with several weeks of self-defense classes over any man without any fomr of training. Plus men have a few weak spots, like the genitals. If a woman gets a good, swift and strong kick there, the man is down, and women know this and aim there, while guys generally do not (we know how painfull it is).

Not true. Groin kicks are notoriously unreliable. Most miss entirely.

And the strength issue is the most significant part. A punch from a woman will generally not hurt that much unless it is properly placed. A punch from a man can easily break bones in your face.

Another issue is physical toughness of skin and bones. IIRC women's bones are 25% thinner and far more porous than men's. The dermis is also much thinner, which is why women bruise so easily.

Men are built to fight (quite literally, by the way). Women don't have a number of specific adaptations for unarmed combat that men do...

quote: You guys assume a "guys fight" with punching, why not a "kick him in the nuts, bite him hard and draw blood, and then cut him with somehting sharp" kind of fight?

This is only an issue in certain situations, the most important of which is rape. If a man has an objective other than causing physical injury to the woman then she does have a good chance to bite or scratch her way out. If he's just looking to break her skull then she'll never get close enough to do it. A fist beats nails any day of the week.

	01-07-2003 12:12									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident actually american women can be strong- especially since most of them are fat Most who have grown up with brothers know how to defend themselves. And I don't think women are that weak. I think their strenght is like only 33% or maybe 50% less than the average man's.

50% is the difference between shaking off a blow and dropping to the ground unconscious.

Most women can't even do a single frigging pushup. I'm not in great shape but I can do 50 any day you ask me to.

Now add in the fact that the average man probably has 40 lbs and 5 inches on the average woman and you see where this is going. I'm sure there are adolescent boys out there who could kick my ass too. Just not too many of them.

	01-07-2003 12:14									#37
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Honestly, the average woman taking on the average man is like me walking into a ring with evander hollyfield...

	01-07-2003 12:18									#38
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I am with full agreement ( Once again, might I say!! ) with Spiffor.

	01-07-2003 12:21									#39
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well I'm inclined to agree with you Krazy.

perhaps I just think differently because I'm not very tall, and don't have a large build. My muscles are cut, but then I look at these women's sports on tv, and these women look so much stronger than me. Even the chicks I saw playing volleyball. They probably took steroids though. But damn, they looked like they could crush me.

women scare me

	01-07-2003 12:22									#40
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Honestly, the average woman taking on the average man is like me walking into a ring with evander hollyfield...

I am sorry, but I find that silly. As I said, a trained woman can beat an untrained man, th vast majority of the time. I agree that most of the time a man and a woman with no training whatsoever and at the same relative state of health, fitness and stamina, then a mans chances are better. But they are NOT utterly one sided at all.

quote: Most women can't even do a single frigging pushup. I'm not in great shape but I can do 50 any day you ask me to.

Then you are in very good shape cause most men I know can't do 50 push-ups in a row. And I have seen wone do push-ups, so maybe you just like hanging around weak women.

I am sorry Krazyhorse, but you make all these pronouncements that are based on...? Not common sense, not science, but what?

	01-07-2003 12:24									#41
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Hitting anyone is never ok period.

Gender does not enter in to it. You have a right to defend yourself...but the laws here dictate which sex can and can not hit the other.

In real life defending yourself against an agressive woman in Ontario Canda can lose your house your kids and your life.

So in todays environment suck it up take the shots and grab a phone.

DO NOT and I stess DO NOT defend yourself and or strike back. That is a certain jail sentance and or loss of all you care to think free and or yours.

Heh after all we are men, men do not cry, men do not hit women and men do not report it.

So if some aggressive woman decides you are a vicitm suck it up because statistics prove you are going to pay for your defence, one way or the other.

	01-07-2003 12:25									#42
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hey, even a weakling like me can do 50 pushups. or close to it. In the navy we weren't required to do that many. I always did the minimum- I was such a slacker.

The women had trouble doing their minimum- which is like 12 or 13 pushups. The minimum for men I believe was 27 pushups.

So you could probably say the average man is twice as strong as the average woman- in terms of upper body strength.

	01-07-2003 12:28									#43
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In reality assault is not just the act of hitting...

So while men do more damage it is not the sole meassure of damage.

Violence against men: Is it ever ok? After all more of that occures than the other...

It is better to dwell in a corner of the housetop, than with a brawling woman in a wide house.
-- Proverbs 21:9 (KJV)

Last edited by blackice on 01-07-2003 at 12:35

	01-07-2003 12:31									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident hey, even a weakling like me can do 50 pushups. or close to it. In the navy we weren't required to do that many. I always did the minimum- I was such a slacker.

I dare you to ask all your male friends and anone who might do it to jst drop and give you 50. If it was so easy to do 50, why don;t you think the NAVY asks for that many to be done?

quote: The women had trouble doing their minimum- which is like 12 or 13 pushups. The minimum for men I believe was 27 pushups.

Push-ups basically measure upper body strength, which women certainly have far less than men. If you are going to be giving me a list of types fo excercises that favor men's strenghts, then no kidding men do better. You try to have men match women in flexibility.

quote: So you could probably say the average man is twice as strong as the average woman- in terms of upper body strength.

Yes, upper body, but that by itself is not the deciding factor, and anyone can tell you than with some thinking you can beat someone twice as strong, as long as you aim for where they are weak and try to minimize giving their strengths an edge. I very strong hit aimed at the neck, at the larynx, can really bring anyone down.

	01-07-2003 12:32									#45
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here I am watching clips of Charlie's Angels

These women are kicking the guy's asses. but it looks so fake.

I'm actually kind of tired of women fighting men in movies. It just doesn't seem very realistic. Yeah if they are wearing boots, they can do some damage, but it still doesn't look right.

Have there been any real life instances of a woman kicking a guy's ass like that?

	01-07-2003 12:33									#46
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Self defense, as well as extreme annoying are fine causes.

Just seen Memento another time last night. When that girl pisses him off extremely (and deliberately, too), he hits her. That's understandable.

	01-07-2003 12:34									#47
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I dare you to ask all your male friends and anone who might do it to jst drop and give you 50. If it was so easy to do 50, why don;t you think the NAVY asks for that many to be done?

actually we did have to do that many in boot camp and if you are under 20 years old. Once you get to the age 21 to 30 age group, you only have to do 27.

In boot camp we had to do 67 pushups. I did that easily. And I am just as strong as I was back then, even stronger maybe (I still work out with dumbells- not strenuously though)

quote: Yes, upper body, but that by itself is not the deciding factor, and anyone can tell you than with some thinking you can beat someone twice as strong, as long as you aim for where they are weak and try to minimize giving their strengths an edge. I very strong hit aimed at the neck, at the larynx, can really bring anyone down.

As for this, well it depends on training. The factor here is men are taller and have longer arm and leg length. So often a woman can not even get in close enough to do damage. But if she is a trained fighter, she can evade the man's punches and get in close enough to do damage.

	01-07-2003 12:37									#48
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I am sorry, but I find that silly. As I said, a trained woman can beat an untrained man, th vast majority of the time. I agree that most of the time a man and a woman with no training whatsoever and at the same relative state of health, fitness and stamina, then a mans chances are better. But they are NOT utterly one sided at all.

hah. There are some women out there who can beat some men, but this isn't a technical sport; it's a matter of who can hurt the other person most. And if you want a weak spot, punch a girl in the chest...

For god's sake, look at a woman's hands the next time you get a chance. They don't have knuckles to speak of and the fist probably only weighs half as much as yours does. In a number of areas human beings are a sexually dimorphic species. There is a very significant size difference, as well as structural accomodations to childbirth and rearing on the one hand, and physical combat on the other. There's a reason men have an adam's apple and vastly superior upper body strength...

quote: Then you are in very good shape cause most men I know can't do 50 push-ups in a row. And I have seen wone do push-ups, so maybe you just like hanging around weak women. I am sorry Krazyhorse, but you make all these pronouncements that are based on...? Not common sense, not science, but what?

Jesus, GePap. You don't fight welterweights against heavyweights. Especially not when the welterweight's average muscle mass as a proportion is significantly lower than the heavyweight's.

No, most men can't do 50 pushups. But they're a lot closer to it than most women are to even doing 5. And they're lifting 30% more weight each pushup.

	01-07-2003 12:38									#49
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OT: My brother's friend has a shirt that says "My name is Charlie, these are my angels". And it has silhouettes of the three girls who did the Manson murders, one with a gun, two with knives.

	01-07-2003 12:39									#50
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quote: Several months ago, I watched a news program - the 60 minutes type - in which a man and a woman talked about her abuse of him. She openly and fearlessly admitted that she had stabbed him in the back with a fork for "trying to leave". When asked why she said that "he deserved it" and that "he is a man - he can take it". The man was asked why he stayed with her. He said he had nowhere to run. This is common too. Society provides NO SHELTER for the abused man. I know a man who was stalked for 7 years by a mentally ill woman. During the whole episode the poor guy desperately tried to get rid of her. She followed him from university to university, from church to church. She chased all of his roomates, friends and dates away. He called the police - and they LAUGHED at him. Not believing myself, I posed as an abused man and I asked 2 lawyers for help. They suggested that I get help (mental help for me, not her). I called the abuse hotlines and they too suggested that I get help (for me - not her) and politely told me that I absolutely could not stay with them. I was intrigued with where this mental illness issue for abused men came from.

http://www.menweb.org/throop/batter.../ko-inside.html

	01-07-2003 12:39									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident actually we did have to do that many in boot camp and if you are under 20 years old. Once you get to the age 21 to 30 age group, you only have to do 27. In boot camp we had to do 67 pushups. I did that easily. And I am just as strong as I was back then, even stronger maybe (I still work out with dumbells)

Wow, so a bunch of men in their late teens,who are generally fit, can do a lot more push-up than women.. and f course these guys are a model for all the beer-swilling gut empowered men out there....

If you aks me: a guy decides to pick a fight and hurt someone by talking a swing and then going on to beat them, then certainly a woman will be an "easy target" becuase they are weaker in general. The thing is, I would not think doing so against men is any better, and would hope anyone who did this got a hefty time in jail. The question is, if and wehn violence might be acceptable, does the gender of the other person make a difference? For me, in those rare times that violence is in any ways justified, then no, gender makes no difference. People wo go out to pick fights should be in prison for assault and disorderly conduct.

	01-07-2003 12:40									#52
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If you are an abused man, you just move and don't tell anyone where you are moving to.

Case closed!

	01-07-2003 12:42									#53
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Need more? I could go on for weeks. Get out of your shell women do damage, inflict damage are capable of damage and to those that think otherwise...heh I ask who is sexist?

Do not demean women that way...

	01-07-2003 12:44									#54
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Push-ups basically measure upper body strength, which women certainly have far less than men. If you are going to be giving me a list of types fo excercises that favor men's strenghts, then no kidding men do better. You try to have men match women in flexibility.

If and when flexibility becomes as important a factor as strength, speed and physical toughness (resistance to injury) when in a brawl then we can discuss it.

Fights are usually a matter of 2-3 good punches and sometimes a bit of grappling, all of which rely almost exclusively on the upper-body strength you dismiss so casually. Flexibility doesn't get you anywhere when some guy's forearm is locked around your throat.

	01-07-2003 12:45									#55
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Wow, so a bunch of men in their late teens,who are generally fit, can do a lot more push-up than women.. and f course these guys are a model for all the beer-swilling gut empowered men out there.... If you aks me: a guy decides to pick a fight and hurt someone by talking a swing and then going on to beat them, then certainly a woman will be an "easy target" becuase they are weaker in general. The thing is, I would not think doing so against men is any better, and would hope anyone who did this got a hefty time in jail. The question is, if and wehn violence might be acceptable, does the gender of the other person make a difference? For me, in those rare times that violence is in any ways justified, then no, gender makes no difference. People wo go out to pick fights should be in prison for assault and disorderly conduct.

The women in the navy were almost certainly in better physical shape relative to the average woman than the men were to the average man. Unless the recruitment numbers have changed drastically...

	01-07-2003 12:46									#56
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you are demeaning women, I have never met you but I bet I know at least one women who could kick your butt.../....

	01-07-2003 12:47									#57
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Let's put it this way.

I consider myself to be less strong than the average man. I am only 150 pounds- this shows how small my build is. Actually my ideal weight is about 135. I used to weigh 185- I'm still losing weight- I lost about 35 pound so far.

but I mentioned that so you know how small my build is. I am only 68 inches tall.

So you have someone like me who is less strong than the average man who can still do 50 pushups. then you have women who weigh 100 pounds who can't do 20 pushups.

So you can definately say that men are twice as strong as women in upper body strength.

but actually fat women are stronger. They have much bigger arms. Many have bigger arms than me (which I don't like ). I'm not sure how much of that is fat though. but they lose out on a lot of agility that I have over them.

My main weakness is my shortness and lack of arm length. So even though I'm stronger than many women, I still don't want to get in fights with them.

The point of this?

Well to illustrate that most men are stronger than women. the only chance women have in a fight, is if they are fighting someone their height, and who does not have good arm length.

Also as I mentioned before, if a women is fast, and trained at fighting, they can evade a mans attacks and go for his testicles or neck.

	01-07-2003 12:52									#58
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I can also do 50 pushups easily and still be a lot weaker than a guy who can't do 20. If he's one ehad taller than I am, he's also heavier. So his ability to lift his own body, compared to mine, says nothing about his ability to kick my arse. Same for a girl.

But that's never a point. Strength doesn't matter at all. People that are weak and behave in a way deserving a punch, they'll get it. Especially when they're weak and think they can do whatever they want because they are

	01-07-2003 12:52									#59
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this is turning from a thread of ethical weight of an action to actual tactical instructions.

Hit 'em with a surprise left, Diss!

	01-07-2003 13:00									#60
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I'd still like to know of real life instances of major fights between men and women. I don't think enough study has been done on this subject.

Like I said earlier. all these men/women fights in movies bother me. They don't seem realistic.

Can someone 6 to 8 inches shorter, with 50% less upper body strenght with a little more flexibility do anything against a man?

perhaps we need more male/female boxing matches. But like I mentioned earlier, a woman just recently died from a boxing match with another woman. Granted, a boxer died last year in my city after a boxing match- but he was a small fighter as well (I think featherweight class- he was a small hispanic from Panama) But most men aren't that small, so I'm not sure you can draw any conclusions from that.