01-07-2003 23:19									#1
	Most useful traits for ai Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Hi,

I am wondering which civ traits you guys think help out the AI the most? I'm starting to think the poor ai needs a bit more help against me than a random choice of civs currently gives it.

Suppose the map was standard or large (I dont want to deal with a huge button pressing fest), and the difficulty was Emporer or Diety. Probably Diety since I just creamed the ai on Emporer with an English sword rush.

I think military would help them, I also think expansionist might help get them started, also industrious. As for my civ, I am thinking about Korea.

And is cultural linking easier or harder?

Thanks.

	01-07-2003 23:42									#2
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hi ,

well try a couple test games , click all traits for a couple AI civs and see what happens , ......

deity with 24 civs on a 364X364 map can be a real challengs , just dont forget to put the " distance between civ " and the " number of cities " higher , .....

have a nice day , and good luck

	02-07-2003 01:13									#3
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"deity with 24 civs on a 364X364 map can be a real challengs"

i find that i've reached "too many cities" (516) if the map is even 300x300 (assuming water is 70%).

	02-07-2003 01:22									#4
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quote: Originally posted by bobbo008 "deity with 24 civs on a 364X364 map can be a real challengs" i find that i've reached "too many cities" (516) if the map is even 300x300 (assuming water is 70%).

hi ,

it depens how you build , serious cities that use all the tiles or borg tactics of one space inbetween them , .....

it works great on a 60% water map , ....

have a nice day

	02-07-2003 01:40									#5
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The civ traits I find help the AI the most:

Commercial - more money, lower corruption. The AI is terrible at money management and corruption reduction, so this is probably the #1 trait for the AI to have.

Scientific - cheap libraries + free tech. This helps them enormously. Now, with the 1.21 patch, if you have several scientific AI opponents, you stand a good chance of suddenly facing a rather significant tech deficiet if they hit the industrial age at the same time you do (if one gets Steam Power, another gets Nationalism, and so on. )

Industrious - the AI really sucks at terrain development, and this trait will help them there. I've seen non-industrious AI empires in the Industrial Age that still don't have many of their tiles developed. Hell, I've seen Carthage in the industrial age with most of its jungle tiles uncleared! In short, the AI needs all the help it can get in this area.

Religious in the hands of the AI is merely so-so. The AI will not plan ahead and say "I will switch to Monarchy in a few turns before unleashing my hordes of troops on my neighbors. Then I will switch to Democracy right afterwards, after using up and/or disbanding some of my forces." Ain't gonna happen. Further, the AI trades for luxuries with itself like crazy and it has the Regent level happiness, so cheap temples & cathedrals aren't that big a deal (though considering the AI's refusal to use the luxury slider, there is still some value there).

Expansionist & Militaristic are totally wasted on the AI. Both require strategy to use (strategy tailored specifically to take advantage of the traits), and the AI is a generalist. It won't engage in a huge warrior -> sword upgrade in the ancient age and lay waste to an entire continent. It won't build extra scouts (all they ever do is run around with the 1 they start with).

That's my opinion, of course. I could be wrong. But in my experience, Greece & Korea are usually strong AI civs. Carthage & France often do well. The Persians & Ottomans too.

More important that civ traits, however, is starting terrain, and the starting terrain of the civ's immediate neighbors. If you really want powerful AI opponents, the best thing that can happen is for the map generator to create a world that places strong builder AIs (Korea, France, Persia, Egypt, etc) on excellent terrain next to aggressive civs on poor land (Germany, Mongols, Aztecs). Chances are, the aggies will attack the builders, but lose, and the builders will then get bigger & stronger.

-Arrian

	02-07-2003 02:57									#6
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i've never seen france survive for long, and they've never been one of the stronger 50% of the civs ever... but thats just me, and they're pink...

	02-07-2003 04:41									#7
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I spent a lot of time thinking about how to create 'Killer AI' civs ("KAIs") a while back. A fair amount of that thinking in terms of civ traits, build preferences, etc., ended up in the AU Mod, so I really suggest you try it out.

That said, Arrian is absolutely correct: terrain and neighbors and distance seemingly have the greatest effects of all.

When I (rarely now) play a game from scratch, I typically choose the more aggressive AI civs, leaning toward commercial and scientific (very good calls by Arrian), 3B, warm, wet, and 1-3 less AI civs than allowed depending on % water.

Also, it is important for war to be in the air.

[Sidenote: HOTD*MN!! Just had a great idea for AU 402]

The AI civs "react to their environment" according to Soren, so getting a little bad blood into the geo-political scene evidently increases AI attention to things military.

Again, a part of AU has been to face off against tougher AI civs, i.e., KAIs. Going all the way back, both Arrian and I had our heads handed to us in one of the precursors to AU, the second Mini-Tourney, which I (?) set up with some of the above principles in mind (and that was before various patch improvements)... in self defense, btw, I recently played the first half or so of MT2, and kicked ass.

	02-07-2003 18:13									#8
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i find that expantionist ai can be quite intimidating at times. i rarely see a week america ai, but never see a strong mongol/zulu after ancient age... but are very difficult then. the ai is unable to use military trait, especially when coupled with expantion. i never see strong english or russian.
Iroquois and america, however, i often see become VERY powerful, moreso america due to more aggressiveness.

the most difficult ai i have seen is: Korea, america, babylon(although i find computers often team up on it).

	02-07-2003 23:43									#9
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I almost always see a powerful England. And they tend to be good at taking down their neighbors (France, Russia, Germany)

Makes me think expansionist is a help to the AI (maybe they use the early techs for a huge advantage in taking out other AI)

	03-07-2003 00:20									#10
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quote: I almost always see a powerful England. And they tend to be good at taking down their neighbors (France, Russia, Germany)

I think I've seen a powerful England once, and it wasn't even my game. England is nearly always pitifully weak in my games.

-Arrian

	03-07-2003 00:43									#11
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quote: i find that expantionist ai can be quite intimidating at times. i rarely see a week america ai, but never see a strong mongol/zulu after ancient age

Based only on observational evidence from my games and anecdotal evidence from these boards, I think Zululand's problem has less to do with traits than the desire to war in the face of overwhelming odds and common sense. In my current game, they attacked me despite having no chance and I took 3/4 of their cities, and the very turn after I sued for peace , they turned south and started a new war with an AI civ, second largest civ in the game. This is not uncommon.

	03-07-2003 01:08									#12
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I dont know. I think terrain makes the difference in the end. When I mean Terrain I also mean the resources on the terrain. But I think it's clear that AI doesnt know how to use any trait the way human players do.

	03-07-2003 01:21									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Nuclear Master I dont know. I think terrain makes the difference in the end. When I mean Terrain I also mean the resources on the terrain. But I think it's clear that AI doesnt know how to use any trait the way human players do.

I quite agree!!

Another thing is the AI aggression level. Some of the time the AI's with high aggression level and not much science output will start off great early on and then once they get beat down in wars they started they'll become a second class civ. That obviously doesn't ALWAYS happen (I've seen the Zulu be a supreme power in the world well into the modern age before).

	03-07-2003 07:35									#14
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Yes aggression level. I forgot to mention that. It is more of a curse then a blessing. Aggressive civ's sometimes active even if you are 10x more powerful.

	03-07-2003 13:40									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I think I've seen a powerful England once, and it wasn't even my game. England is nearly always pitifully weak in my games.

Hopefully that won't happen in the second demogame, then.

	03-07-2003 15:02									#16
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quote: Originally posted by panag deity with 24 civs on a 364X364 map can be a real challengs , just dont forget to put the " distance between civ " and the " number of cities " higher , .....

You can't even play Chieftain on this map, because the biggest possible map size is 362x362.

As for the traits, well, let's see...

Expansionist: Take advantage from the early knowledge of the map and pop as many huts as you can. You need, of course, a lot of scouts for this. That's what a human would do. I have never seen the AI to build a single scout, all they use is their initial one. And since the AI knows the map anyway, expansionist is a completely useless AI trait. A straight F.

Militaristic: Veteran troops due to cheap barracks, and more leaders due to quicker promotions to elites. It takes much less time to get from vet to elite with double promotion speed that from regular to elite with single. A human would bully warmonger a lot. The AI does this with some civs (e.g. Germany), but not with others (China being an example). I'd say D+.

Scientific: Cheap scientific buildings, one free tech per era. The human would build early libraries (and therefor go for Literature soon) and boost science. The AI seems not very eagerly to research Literature, scientific or not. The free tech per era needs no activity and saves the trait though. C

Religious: Cheap religious buildings, 1 turn anarchy. The human would build early temples and cathedrals and eagerly switch governments. The AI seems to do the same, although doesn't seem to put much thoughts in the choice of the right government. Good AI trait, though. B

Commercial: Less corruption, extra gold in bigger cities. Needs no activity to gain the benefits of the trait. Very good AI trait. A.

Industrious: Fast workers, extra shields in bigger cities. Needs no activity to gain the benefits of the trait. Very good AI trait. A.

Seems Industrious+Commercial (France, Carthage) is the best AI trait combo, and as a matter of fact, France is mostly strong and wealthy. Not sure about Carthage (I abandonned playing SP soon after PTW), but should be the same.

	03-07-2003 15:12									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Going all the way back, both Arrian and I had our heads handed to us in one of the precursors to AU, the second Mini-Tourney, which I (?) set up with some of the above principles in mind (and that was before various patch improvements)...

The second Minitourney... wasn't that the German one? Umm, I'm guilty for this one.

	03-07-2003 18:02									#18
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Yeah, that one kicked my ass. I would do a lot better now, though.

FP, as others have noted in this thread, terrain is more important than traits. Cake or Death?

-Arrian