02-07-2003 01:46									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin That's complete nonsense, Gepap. Money isn't free. Our government is "giving" people money in order to have influence over them, and to a very lesser degree to help them, so insisting they not institute policies we find harmful to our national interests is a fairly reasonable request.

To think that the possible, but imporbable, "threat" to US servicemen coming under prosecution from the ICJ is in any way equal to the policies of enlargiung NATO, the Rummy pet "New Europe" notion, or the War on Drugs (at least for this gov) is absurd.

quote: maybe the ICJ is important to ppl in washington? I dont think petty is an accurate word because I don't think the bush administration is stupid. infact they've shown to be very calculating thus far.

Calculating does not mean bright all the time. These guys have an ideological problem with the whole notion of the ICJ, and they figure that they can bribe all these states into backing our little attempt to undermine it this way. maybe we will succeed in cajoling these states, but we will pay a price much ehavier that any gains.

	02-07-2003 01:49									#32
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quote: Originally posted by GePap To think that the possible, but imporbable, "threat" to US servicemen coming under prosecution from the ICJ is in any way equal to the policies of enlargiung NATO, the Rummy pet "New Europe" notion, or the War on Drugs (at least for this gov) is absurd. quote: maybe the ICJ is important to ppl in washington? I dont think petty is an accurate word because I don't think the bush administration is stupid. infact they've shown to be very calculating thus far. Calculating does not mean bright all the time. These guys have an ideological problem with the whole notion of the ICJ, and they figure that they can bribe all these states into backing our little attempt to undermine it this way. maybe we will succeed in cajoling these states, but we will pay a price much ehavier that any gains.

none of those policies will be lost causes because of this.

u seem to constantly bring up how "the world hates us now." u've done it like 4 times already. hasn't the world always hated us? didn't they hate our last decision and the one before that? I think I'm getn use to it by now. the world is going to hate us. that has been established, lets move on.

	02-07-2003 01:52									#33
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Actually I haven't said anything about the world hating the US: get your posters straight if you want to argue.

quote: hasn't the world always hated us?

Actually, not at all. What reason was there to hate the US pre-1950, at least, outside of Latin America? and parts of Asia? None, really. Maybe you should think why America is disliked now.

	02-07-2003 01:55									#34
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quote: none of those policies will be lost causes because of this.

Only if the other states decide to do what the admin wants them too. If they say no to the admin, then either the US no longer gives them military aid, which will be a big problem, speically for Colombia, ro the US is forced to back down, which is a loss of face for the admin. And even if the admin. wins, these state (many of them very pro-US) will learn that one can not trust the Bush admin, becuase they only look out for themselves (not the US, themselves and their ideologies).

	02-07-2003 01:58									#35
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Actually I haven't said anything about the world hating the US: get your posters straight if you want to argue. quote: hasn't the world always hated us? Actually, not at all. What reason was there to hate the US pre-1950, at least, outside of Latin America? and parts of Asia? None, really. Maybe you should think why America is disliked now.

oh ok pre 1950 but only outside certain regions. hahaha. I've grown up w/ the world hating us. I've been told 7883823 times in the last 4 years that the world hates us. and this next decision will only make them hate us more. its just lost its effect. I don't care anymore.

I am perfectly happy acting in my interests. I feel no need to placate. I don't wanna buy the world flowers. I don't think giving the world free crap is something they are entitled to. in general my perspective is just vastly different from yours.

	02-07-2003 01:59									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Like it or not foreign aid comes with strings. If someone doesn't like the strings then they should forgo accepting the handout.

Certainly. Those "strings" are the working relationships we get with professional officers in the military forces of allies or prospectively useful proxies.

I wonder what happens when everyone figures out they can do without IMET, and that they can get hardware from other sources a little less anal about applying rules and restrictions on what you do with your hardware.

	02-07-2003 02:00									#37
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Actually, not at all. What reason was there to hate the US pre-1950, at least, outside of Latin America? and parts of Asia? None, really. Maybe you should think why America is disliked now.

We just didn't have global reach back then.

	02-07-2003 02:01									#38
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Certainly. Those "strings" are the working relationships we get with professional officers in the military forces of allies or prospectively useful proxies. I wonder what happens when everyone figures out they can do without IMET, and that they can get hardware from other sources a little less anal about applying rules and restrictions on what you do with your hardware.

less anal ppl usually want money.

	02-07-2003 02:02									#39
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon I am perfectly happy acting in my interests. I feel no need to placate. I don't wanna buy the world flowers. I don't think giving the world free crap is something they are entitled to. in general my perspective is just vastly different from yours.

And this is what you don;t get. No one here is saying the reason this is wrong is "becuase the Us is taking away aid, and they deserve our money and we should never do somehitng for our interests"

We are saying this is wrong becuase it is stupid policy. The pet project of undermining the ICJ is not even in the same order of magnitude as the other policies that this law might undermine. It harms US interests to do this, it does not help.

	02-07-2003 02:07									#40
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quote: Originally posted by GePap And this is what you don;t get. No one here is saying the reason this is wrong is "becuase the Us is taking away aid, and they deserve our money and we should never do somehitng for our interests" We are saying this is wrong becuase it is stupid policy. The pet project of undermining the ICJ is not even in the same order of magnitude as the other policies that this law might undermine. It harms US interests to do this, it does not help.

yes ur right I was speaking more in the general. thats why I wasn't replying to ur arguments of the specific.

	02-07-2003 02:12									#41
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I think the United States exploits enough of the world to owe it something.

	02-07-2003 02:13									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I think the United States exploits enough of the world to owe it something.

haha classic.

	02-07-2003 02:15									#43
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quote: Originally posted by GePap We are saying this is wrong becuase it is stupid policy. The pet project of undermining the ICJ is not even in the same order of magnitude as the other policies that this law might undermine. It harms US interests to do this, it does not help.

That's exactly the point.

And yavoon, you might not care about being hated/seen in a negative light only, but you should certainly care about the practical consequences, which may touch your country every so often (violently, god-forbid).

Of course, this is all part of a much larger (and longer) process, not just based solely on this decision, but "every little bit helps" (or harms, actually).

	02-07-2003 02:20									#44
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quote: Originally posted by JCG That's exactly the point. And yavoon, you might not care about being hated/seen in a negative light only, but you should certainly care about the practical consequences, which may touch your country every so often (violently, god-forbid). Of course, this is all part of a much larger (and longer) process, not just based solely on this decision, but "every little bit helps" (or harms, actually).

like I"ve already pointed out. I've spent my entire life(or the entire time I cared). being graciously informed that the rest of the world hates me. It just doesn't affect me nemore. I'm not interested in yet another person saying "well the world REALLY HATES U NOW." its just meh. I don't consider it a valid objection nemore.

	02-07-2003 07:06									#45
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Those morons, they are just bringing the revolution nearer. The US is digging itself it's grave, The US is loosing credibillity, soon they will loose so much credibility that we will have a world war, the US vs. everyone else, and we will loose.

	02-07-2003 07:11									#46
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon like I"ve already pointed out. I've spent my entire life(or the entire time I cared). being graciously informed that the rest of the world hates me. It just doesn't affect me nemore. I'm not interested in yet another person saying "well the world REALLY HATES U NOW." its just meh. I don't consider it a valid objection nemore.

Maybe you were misinformed
I can only speak for the country I am living in, but here in Germany there has actually been much support for the US especially in the time Bill Clinton was President (despite there have always been people who protested certain US-Policies, but those were a minority).
Everything began to change as Bush came to power and showed the world that the american government under his rule has no interest in upholding international treaties since then the relations have more or less steadily declined (with a small rise when the Terrorists crashed into the WTC and even major support for the war in Afghanistan, but afterwards the decline went on with every action that showed that Bushs sole interest was in american supremacy ).
I would consider the relations between USA and Germany at the moment the worst ever.

I can´t speak for other countries, but I think many of them experience the same thing

	02-07-2003 07:27									#47
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From what I have read, this is a good policy. It is nice to see the US taking a tough stance. The way I feel is that if we are going to be distributing money all over the world we better get something back. This is not charity, we give them the money not only to help them but to help ourselves too. I suggest that other countries show some thanks and give us what we want.

	02-07-2003 07:32									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Proteus_MST I would consider the relations between USA and Germany at the moment the worst ever.

Worst ever? When does the invasion begin?

quote: I suggest that other countries show some thanks and give us what we want.

We get what we want now from the aid, despite how stupid those objectives may sometimes be (ex. NATO expansion). What purpose is served by that mitgates undermining what we get from the aid?

	02-07-2003 07:39									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Proteus_MST Maybe you were misinformed I can only speak for the country I am living in, but here in Germany there has actually been much support for the US especially in the time Bill Clinton was President (despite there have always been people who protested certain US-Policies, but those were a minority). Everything began to change as Bush came to power and showed the world that the american government under his rule has no interest in upholding international treaties since then the relations have more or less steadily declined (with a small rise when the Terrorists crashed into the WTC and even major support for the war in Afghanistan, but afterwards the decline went on with every action that showed that Bushs sole interest was in american supremacy ). I would consider the relations between USA and Germany at the moment the worst ever. I can´t speak for other countries, but I think many of them experience the same thing

oh its always been bad. Trust me from the receiving end. u think the french liked us in vietnam? or neone? so now we goto iraq and no1 likes us there. u think neone liked reagan? I can't believe u liked clinton. he sent missiles into countries cuz he didn't want ppl knowing about who was blowing him. amazing what your capable of overlooking.

it was obviously sympathy u felt for 9/11. not support.

	02-07-2003 08:27									#50
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makes sense for america to do this. we're protecting our own.

quote: oh its always been bad. Trust me from the receiving end. u think the french liked us in vietnam?

actually, the french did. we supported them in their war for indochina in the aftermath of ww2; that support was what turned ho chih minh against us.

quote: so now we goto iraq and no1 likes us there.

plenty do, but unless we get seriously crackin' on rebuilding it, the hopes will turn to displeasure and finally hate against us. in some areas, it's looking like that path is already beginning to arise.

quote: u think neone liked reagan? I can't believe u liked clinton. he sent missiles into countries cuz he didn't want ppl knowing about who was blowing him. amazing what your capable of overlooking.

and you believe bush went into iraq purely for noble reasons?
saddam was bad. we took him out. we didn't go to iraq just to liberate the iraqis. nkorea supports terrorism. we haven't made any moves there. iran supports it. we haven't made moves there either.
the collapse of the iraqi threat proves what?
honorable intentions have very little to do with what we did in iraq.

quote: it was obviously sympathy u felt for 9/11. not support.

remember, not everyone has the benefit of viewing 9/11 and bush's actions through the viewpoint of an american. proteus is german. thus, he'll see bush's actions quite differently than you, yavoon.
while for us, the rationale that it's in our best interests is easier to swallow, it's not as easy to believe when you're a minor power. germany, france, korea, russia, and china are all countries that feel threatened by bush's path of apparent unilateralism. thus, whatever "support" that may have been forthcoming was quickly killed because they began to feel as if the us didn't need their support--or want it.

	02-07-2003 08:34									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed makes sense for america to do this. we're protecting our own. quote: oh its always been bad. Trust me from the receiving end. u think the french liked us in vietnam? actually, the french did. we supported them in their war for indochina in the aftermath of ww2; that support was what turned ho chih minh against us. quote: so now we goto iraq and no1 likes us there. plenty do, but unless we get seriously crackin' on rebuilding it, the hopes will turn to displeasure and finally hate against us. in some areas, it's looking like that path is already beginning to arise. quote: u think neone liked reagan? I can't believe u liked clinton. he sent missiles into countries cuz he didn't want ppl knowing about who was blowing him. amazing what your capable of overlooking. and you believe bush went into iraq purely for noble reasons? saddam was bad. we took him out. we didn't go to iraq just to liberate the iraqis. nkorea supports terrorism. we haven't made any moves there. iran supports it. we haven't made moves there either. the collapse of the iraqi threat proves what? honorable intentions have very little to do with what we did in iraq. quote: it was obviously sympathy u felt for 9/11. not support. remember, not everyone has the benefit of viewing 9/11 and bush's actions through the viewpoint of an american. proteus is german. thus, he'll see bush's actions quite differently than you, yavoon. while for us, the rationale that it's in our best interests is easier to swallow, it's not as easy to believe when you're a minor power. germany, france, korea, russia, and china are all countries that feel threatened by bush's path of apparent unilateralism. thus, whatever "support" that may have been forthcoming was quickly killed because they began to feel as if the us didn't need their support--or want it.

it is true that minor powers don't like the major powers acting unilaterally. but it appears that the price of world support would be indecision and ass sitting. so I am glad we had bush around. I don't know why you are insinuating that I somehow need noble reasons to support things. since earlier in this thread I supported what is basically bribery(give aid, expect favor in return).


on somewhat of a tangent I appreciate that bush has done something. after suffering through 8 years of wheel spinning with clinton its nice to have a leader back who leads. let the naysayers shout from the balcony. it is where they belong after all.

	02-07-2003 08:48									#52
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quote: it is true that minor powers don't like the major powers acting unilaterally. but it appears that the price of world support would be indecision and ass sitting. so I am glad we had bush around.

in some ways, i have to agree; a hegemon shouldn't bend over backwards to accomodate weaker nations if the hegemon needs to protect itself.
however, i'd have to say that in the past, our realist behavior has always been covered by a pretty good cover of idealism, which bush has shattered--meaning our naked grabs for power, which i the past were cloaked, are now visible for all to see, and the other countries don't much like that. neither do i--i think it's lacking in finesse.

quote: I don't know why you are insinuating that I somehow need noble reasons to support things.

i brought that point up because you made the statement that clinton blew holes in pharmaceutical factories for less-than-noble reasons.
if you're going to take one person to task about his lurid/distractionary behavior, take everyone to task about it.
if ohno was going to complain that some guy cheated, he'd better not cheat himself; if coulter's going to say that liberals slander conservatives, she'd better not slander them herself.
it works both ways.
enron? what enron?

quote: on somewhat of a tangent I appreciate that bush has done something. after suffering through 8 years of wheel spinning with clinton its nice to have a leader back who leads.

what has bush done except continue the expansion of the government, help create a ballooning deficit, and divide the people in the country into two parties: one following the demagoguery of the right-wing talk shows, and the other following the demagoguery of the leftist politicians?
i don't consider that good domestic leadership...

	02-07-2003 08:56									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed quote: it is true that minor powers don't like the major powers acting unilaterally. but it appears that the price of world support would be indecision and ass sitting. so I am glad we had bush around. in some ways, i have to agree; a hegemon shouldn't bend over backwards to accomodate weaker nations if the hegemon needs to protect itself. however, i'd have to say that in the past, our realist behavior has always been covered by a pretty good cover of idealism, which bush has shattered--meaning our naked grabs for power, which i the past were cloaked, are now visible for all to see, and the other countries don't much like that. neither do i--i think it's lacking in finesse. quote: I don't know why you are insinuating that I somehow need noble reasons to support things. i brought that point up because you made the statement that clinton blew holes in pharmaceutical factories for less-than-noble reasons. if you're going to take one person to task about his lurid/distractionary behavior, take everyone to task about it. if ohno was going to complain that some guy cheated, he'd better not cheat himself; if coulter's going to say that liberals slander conservatives, she'd better not slander them herself. it works both ways. enron? what enron? quote: on somewhat of a tangent I appreciate that bush has done something. after suffering through 8 years of wheel spinning with clinton its nice to have a leader back who leads. what has bush done except continue the expansion of the government, help create a ballooning deficit, and divide the people in the country into two parties: one following the demagoguery of the right-wing talk shows, and the other following the demagoguery of the leftist politicians? i don't consider that good domestic leadership...

yes well clinton my objection is his reasons were not only innoble but they were of no national interest. it was just slick willy getn head and tryin to get away w/ it.

bush has pushed tax cuts through and invaded two countries. other good things include a minor blow to affirmative action in michigan(u can be racist, but only slightly!). telemarketers are on the run. hopefully the single largest contributor to the democratic party(the tort lawyers) will get their ass kicked and doctors insurance premiums can come back down to earth. and in maybe a more ethereal way he has been the leader. its hard in the world of slander to do things that ur convictions tell u too and not be roasted for them. its far easier to poll watch and do nothing.


tho I would have liked mccain as president a lot I imagine.

	02-07-2003 09:03									#54
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quote: yes well clinton my objection is his reasons were not only innoble but they were of no national interest. it was just slick willy getn head and tryin to get away w/ it.

a lot of people believe a war in iraq had no beneficial national interest.

bush has pushed two tax cuts through. the rationale for the first one was the economy was doing so well. the rationale for the second one was to stimulate the piss-poor economy.
the tax cuts coupled with a lagging economy, increased spending, and ballooning government size -- all under bush's administration -- have created the makings of a financial disaster which will come to head once bush leaves office.

the telemarketers thing was not bush's baby at all.

as for his campaign promises, two really stick out at me. one was the "if america is humble, it will gain the respect of the world" comment... and the other was "i'm a uniter, not a divider".

	02-07-2003 09:08									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed quote: yes well clinton my objection is his reasons were not only innoble but they were of no national interest. it was just slick willy getn head and tryin to get away w/ it. a lot of people believe a war in iraq had no beneficial national interest. bush has pushed two tax cuts through. the rationale for the first one was the economy was doing so well. the rationale for the second one was to stimulate the piss-poor economy. the tax cuts coupled with a lagging economy, increased spending, and ballooning government size -- all under bush's administration -- have created the makings of a financial disaster which will come to head once bush leaves office. the telemarketers thing was not bush's baby at all. as for his campaign promises, two really stick out at me. one was the "if america is humble, it will gain the respect of the world" comment... and the other was "i'm a uniter, not a divider".

I'm not gna demand that u say bush was a great president. I say he led the country despite the opinion of the world and in some cases polls at home. and that takes conviction, and that impresses me and is sorely lacking in politics.

also campaigns made before 9/11 become quite moot wouldn't u say? a lot of my views took radical skews because of 9/11, why wouldn't bush's?

	02-07-2003 09:11									#56
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quote: also campaigns made before 9/11 become quite moot wouldn't u say? a lot of my views took radical skews because of 9/11, why wouldn't bush's?

the one campaign promise that should NOT have gone out the window was the assurance that bush was a uniter, not a divider.

had bush had far more tact and political skill, i daresay we could have avoided the entire anti-war fiasco.

division of this nature is the last thing we need in these rough times.

	02-07-2003 10:27									#57
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IIRC, Lithuania was not getting any money. Not that we need any. Cross training with badass americans will be missed. Especially the periodical total wipeouts of deltas and seals in American traing grounds. Oh well, someone got pissed off over that, I guess.

	02-07-2003 11:10									#58
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hmm, err...hmmm I'm too druink to understand this now. I willl get bak to you tomorrow

	02-07-2003 13:02									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed quote: also campaigns made before 9/11 become quite moot wouldn't u say? a lot of my views took radical skews because of 9/11, why wouldn't bush's? the one campaign promise that should NOT have gone out the window was the assurance that bush was a uniter, not a divider. had bush had far more tact and political skill, i daresay we could have avoided the entire anti-war fiasco. division of this nature is the last thing we need in these rough times.

I don't hold that perspective. sure division isn't good. but we need to act asin our interests. we'd like to bring ppl along cuz I personally feel that our interests are shared with lotsa other ppl.

but I dare say the more ppl u bring on and give ear to the slower everything goes. especially if france was in. I think it might be presumptiuous to assume someone of amazing tact or asskissing would have won over the UNSC. europe has been very apprehensive about doing things. its often the americans that go in unilaterally.

	02-07-2003 13:09									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Proteus_MST ....... I would consider the relations between USA and Germany at the moment the worst ever.

Worse than in 1945? You must really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, hate us now.