02-07-2003 02:58									#1
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quote: Ala. Judge Loses Ten Commandments Appeal Tuesday July 1, 2003 8:49 PM ATLANTA (AP) - A federal appeals court ruled Tuesday that a Ten Commandments monument the size of a washing machine must be removed from the Alabama Supreme Court building. The 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals unanimously affirmed a ruling by a federal judge who said that the 2-ton granite monument, placed there by Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore, violates the constitutional separation of church and state. ``If we adopted his position, the chief justice would be free to adorn the walls of the Alabama Supreme Court's courtroom with sectarian religious murals and have decidedly religious quotations painted above the bench,'' the three-judge panel said. ``Every government building could be topped with a cross, or a menorah, or a statue of Buddha, depending upon the views of the officials with authority over the premises.'' Moore put the monument in the rotunda of the courthouse in the middle of the night two summers ago. The monument features tablets bearing the Ten Commandments and historical quotations about the place of God in law. He was sued by several attorneys who said the monument infringed on their religious freedom. In November, a federal judge ordered the monument removed but then decided it could stay pending appeal.

from the Associated Press...



It's good to see some people respect the first amendment.

	02-07-2003 06:25									#2
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quote: He was sued by several attorneys who said the monument infringed on their religious freedom.

How was their religious freedom denied by the monument? Strange title, Sava.

	02-07-2003 06:46									#3
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It does not interfer with with the free exercise of religion, it violates the anti-establishment clause. The idiot reporters are just too stupid to to report law matters.

Last edited by Lefty Scaevola on 02-07-2003 at 07:00

	02-07-2003 06:52									#5
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United States is a republic anyway -- not a theocracy.

	02-07-2003 06:53									#7
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quote: The idiot reporters are just too stupid to to report law matters.

Exactly. The American Government... is not... and should not... be Christian... or Judeo-Christian... or THEISTIC in any way. Even if the vast majority of people hold theistic views, putting such views into government constitutes establishment. However benign it may be, it's still establishment, it's against the Constitution... and frankly, it's contrary to freedom.

I cheer this ruling as it flies in the face of selfish, regressive, theocratic ideals that many people hold.

	02-07-2003 06:54									#8
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Good ruling... dumb judge.

	02-07-2003 06:58									#9
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If the jackass wants to express his religion in a STATE-SPONSORED court of law, established as a SECULAR democracy not a CHRISTIAN democracy, he can tattoo that stuff across his forehead, the lousy bum. If he doesn't like it...too effing bad.

	02-07-2003 07:13									#10
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quote: and frankly, it's contrary to freedom.

How so?

	02-07-2003 07:20									#11
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quote: How so?

Establishment... etc...

The belief in God is a religious one. Placing references to God in courts, on money, in national pledges, the state is ESTABLISHING the public's belief in that religious concept. That goes against the first amendment... which outlines both freedom OF religion, and freedom FROM religion.

	02-07-2003 07:22									#12
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Yeah, but I see Berzerker's point. This judge placing these Commandments to nothing to diminish other people's 'freedom'. You might say it is a slippery slope, but that's another argument. This act, by itself, didn't result in less freedom for the amount of time that the slab was there, and now, suddenly, the people got their freedom back.

	02-07-2003 08:21									#13
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The thread title is wrong, but the verdict on the decision was right as hell. It is blatantly unconstitutional.

Funny, I thought this thread was going to be a troll...

	02-07-2003 08:43									#14
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quote: didn't result in less freedom for the amount of time that the slab was there

with this kind of freedom, you don't realize it's gone until you're being burned at the stake...

	02-07-2003 09:03									#15
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If a judge is basing decisions on Christian principles, there'd be a problem.

But the 10 Commandments can represent something other than religion - they can also represent a basic moral code that is pretty much good no matter who or what you believe in.

"Thou shall not kill", etc...what's wrong with posting that? I mean, hell, many of the prohibitions in the 10 Commandments are against the law anyway, and some, such as "Thou shall not bear false witness against your neighbor" are relevant as hell in a court of law.

	02-07-2003 09:04									#16
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"Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

That's one of the problems.

	02-07-2003 09:18									#17
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd If a judge is basing decisions on Christian principles, there'd be a problem. But the 10 Commandments can represent something other than religion - they can also represent a basic moral code that is pretty much good no matter who or what you believe in. "Thou shall not kill", etc...what's wrong with posting that? I mean, hell, many of the prohibitions in the 10 Commandments are against the law anyway, and some, such as "Thou shall not bear false witness against your neighbor" are relevant as hell in a court of law.

The problem with "thou shalt not kill" is that Republicans who support the death penality are not following it.

	02-07-2003 09:19									#18
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun The problem with "thou shalt not kill" is that Republicans who support the death penality are not following it.

The problem with "Thou Shalt Not Kill" is that it is a mistranslation that is too often quoted.

	02-07-2003 09:21									#19
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc The problem with "Thou Shalt Not Kill" is that it is a mistranslation that is too often quoted.

I never remember reading this commandment as saying, "Thou shalt not kill, except for . . ."

	02-07-2003 09:28									#20
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I never remember reading this commandment as saying, "Thou shalt not kill, except for . . ."

It's "Thou Shalt Not Murder."

	02-07-2003 09:29									#21
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd If a judge is basing decisions on Christian principles, there'd be a problem. But the 10 Commandments can represent something other than religion - they can also represent a basic moral code that is pretty much good no matter who or what you believe in. "Thou shall not kill", etc...what's wrong with posting that? I mean, hell, many of the prohibitions in the 10 Commandments are against the law anyway, and some, such as "Thou shall not bear false witness against your neighbor" are relevant as hell in a court of law.

Skywalker had it right. Sure, 'thou shalt not kill' is all well and good, but about 'keep holy the sabbath day' and 'hold no other god before me'? Are these punishable offences? Heck no, and as such, they should not be presented in that manner in a government law building.

Why don't we just start putting quotes of Mohammed or Ramakrishna up on the walls of the courtroom? As long as they're relevant, eh?

	02-07-2003 09:37									#22
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quote: Skywalker had it right. Sure, 'thou shalt not kill' is all well and good, but about 'keep holy the sabbath day' and 'hold no other god before me'? Are these punishable offences? Heck no, and as such, they should not be presented in that manner in a government law building.

You'd have to be really stupid to think that just because a VERY WELL KNOWN Biblical passage is engraved on a government building, then you have to do what the passage says. Come on.

quote: Why don't we just start putting quotes of Mohammed or Ramakrishna up on the walls of the courtroom? As long as they're relevant, eh?

Why not? Again, only a moron would assume they actually have to do what the Bible or Koran or whatever say in order to avoid the law.

	02-07-2003 09:52									#23
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Good. Now we need someone to overturn the Marietta, GA school board decision to teach Creationism in science classrooms and we'll be on better ground.

	02-07-2003 09:53									#24
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quote: Good. Now we need someone to overturn the Marietta, GA school board decision to teach Creationism in science classrooms and we'll be on better ground.

Obviously, only science should be taught in science classrooms. Take that for what you will.

	02-07-2003 10:21									#25
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hi ,

" oh boy " , they really have nothing better to do then to rule on that , ......

what a waste of taxdollars and time , .....

have a nice day

	02-07-2003 11:47									#26
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Sava -

quote: Establishment... etc... The belief in God is a religious one. Placing references to God in courts, on money, in national pledges, the state is ESTABLISHING the public's belief in that religious concept. That goes against the first amendment... which outlines both freedom OF religion, and freedom FROM religion.

Government officials telling me about "God" doesn't violate my freedom... Prohibiting them from telling me about "God" violates theirs. Now, we have all sorts of laws that do violate the establishment clause (like not selling booze on Sundays), and I'm sure we'd agree about getting rid of them, but this guy's plaque doesn't violate anyone's freedom.

	02-07-2003 16:15									#27
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Good point, Berz - let's get rid of liquor restrictions on Sunday, and then we'll talk about posting the 10 Commandments.

	02-07-2003 16:57									#28
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd You'd have to be really stupid to think that just because a VERY WELL KNOWN Biblical passage is engraved on a government building, then you have to do what the passage says. Come on.

So what? It is still unconstitutional! It violates the establishment clause. Thus the court's ruling on this issue was perfectly correct.

	02-07-2003 17:01									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Government officials telling me about "God" doesn't violate my freedom... Prohibiting them from telling me about "God" violates theirs. Now, we have all sorts of laws that do violate the establishment clause (like not selling booze on Sundays), and I'm sure we'd agree about getting rid of them, but this guy's plaque doesn't violate anyone's freedom.

Your example is wrong. "Not selling booze on Sundays" is completely free of religious connotation (even if it was derived from the rules of a religion), thus it is perfectly constitutional. Give a correct example, and you'll be right. But I don't think there is one...

	02-07-2003 17:22									#30
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc It's "Thou Shalt Not Murder."

So what's the difference if capital punishment is murder?