02-07-2003 03:33									#1
	Science Rate Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Our current Science Rate is set at 30%.

At this rate we will discover new technologies every 75 turns. However, increasing this rate to 70% would result in new techs every 30 turns.

Also, 30% Science and 70% Taxes results in surplus funds of 17 gold. Alternatively 70% Science and 30% Taxes results in a 1 gold deficit.

We currently have 0 Libraries built but we have 5 Libraries in production.

Therefore, should we change our science rate now, or wait until a time when the increased rate will benefit the Imperium more?

Sparrowhawk
Science Minister

	02-07-2003 10:30									#2
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sorry, I don't have the power to edit polls, just let everyone know that the poll will be considered closed in 2 days

	02-07-2003 20:07									#3
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Figured that rushbuilding things was the city-planner's domain

Anyhoo, since I'm still in the analysis stage, I'll give you an overview of what I was thinking, Sparrowhawk:

We do have a lot of cash, so rushbuilding makes a lot of sense. However, we don't want to waste money rushing improvements in places where they will be only marginally useful (e.g. in Pax Apolyton, even at 70% science a library would only add one beaker). And our cities are so trade-poor, none really justify cash/science improvements at the moment.

That said, I propose rushing Libraries in 4 core cities, growing them to size 5 (Imperialis will be there naturally in 2 turns, and we could immediately add a Settler to Majestica to make it size 5) and then converting the workers to Scientists. A size 5 city with 5 scientists produces 22 beakers/turn with library. Four such cities would give us 88 beakers/turn, while the food lasts

Currently our entire civilization would produce 30 beakers/turn at 70% science... and maybe 38 beakers with a lot of rushed libraries. If we grew even 2 cities to size 5, and hired scientists in them, they'd produce 44 beakers w/ libraries, regardless of the science rate.

	02-07-2003 20:21									#4
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Leave the tax rate as is. we need cash to build improvements and some units. Maxing fro science is getting us no where.

STYOM, I agree with your idea of rushing library's in only key cities. Once we have the trade arrows we can begin more expansive growth.
As far as the pole suggesting rushing libraries; I think it was wise of the science minister to include that possibility in his poll, however i agree that the request for rushing libraries should be in the city planners poll.

	02-07-2003 22:52									#5
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It is not the intention of the Ministry of Science to "step on the toes" of the City Planning Department. However, having said that, the Ministry of Science will propose whatever changes need to be made to increase the rate at which we are discovering new technologies, and if those suggestions cross the line in between the various ministries, I think this is unavoidable, and not something I am going to be worried about (and I would hope that no other minister is going to be either).

It is essential that the Monarchy have informed decisions from all Ministries, and I would be doing the King and our Peasants oops , I mean Citizens a disservice to not suggest the building of Libraries. If the City Planner disagrees with what I propose we build, and the People do as well, then I would suspect his recommedation as to what to build in the cities (or in this case, what to rush build) would take precedence over the recommendations of the Science Minister and have no problem with the choices made in this democratic process.

Respectively submitted,
Sparrowhawk
Science Minister

(Overhead from Sparrowhawk after submitting this message to the city planner..."what will prove interesting is when the Fickle populace vote to rush build libraries in the Science thread, and units in the Minister of War thread, and Temples in the City Planners thread. Perhaps chaos will result, but as long as I get those libraries built that is all that is important". - Disgruntled Science Clerk "Bring back Atawa!! "

	02-07-2003 22:59									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Sparrowhawk It is not the intention of the Ministry of Science to "step on the toes" of the City Planning Department. However, having said that, the Ministry of Science will propose whatever changes need to be made to increase the rate at which we are discovering new technologies, and if those suggestions cross the line in between the various ministries, I think this is unavoidable, and not something I am going to be worried about (and I would hope that no other minister is going to be either).

Agreed, and there is always some overlap between the various Ministries. Ideas and suggestions are always welcomed; but a poll is binding.

I ran into the same dilemma in Demogame #2 as Science Minister.

	03-07-2003 03:32									#7
	Got spare money?

I agree with STYOM's plan to rush libraries only where they will produce a significant benefit.

That's the problem with polls in that they are blunt instruments, when you need finer tools to do the job properly.

I would recommend dropping to 0 percent science at this point, to maximise luxuries, and see if we can't trigger a few WLtSDs

	03-07-2003 05:02									#8
	Full PM-box? Change here!

A part of the President's responsibilities is to try and balance conflicting recommendations from the Ministers. It happens frequently enough.

	03-07-2003 06:16									#9
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Since the vote is currently in a 3-way dead-heat, i wanted to clarify my position:
I voted for:
"Rush Libraries but leave Science at 30% for now"

meaning, rush for the one city that will be size 5 in 2 turns next turn, not this turn,
then rush the next library whenever the next city will turn to size 5. Basically, hold off on rushing until right before they turn size 5, in order to not spend unnecessary money, and save shields.
I also think that Science at 30% for now is good, until we get enough growth/trade that it makes an impact. How much difference does 30% vs. 70% science make for Xinning, as I see it, the einsteins aren't affected by 30v70, and that's where our science will be coming from, so might as well keep the cash machine flowing to subsidize the war.

btw, speaking of science, should we not send off a couple of explorers for the sole purpose of finding those rebirthed Indians so that we can gift them and reduce our science factor?(key civ)

	03-07-2003 06:33									#10
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rush build units and our number of arrows will increase as we take all the AI cities.

	03-07-2003 07:36									#11
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Some cities need to rush structures only so that they can build martial law units faster. The population grows relentlessly and some cities are not prepared for that and can go unhappy.

	03-07-2003 07:39									#12
	Inflate your Upload Space

nivs, good to see new blood in the forum. Hopefully you will add your name to the signup index at the top of this forum, and also add yourself to the Civ2 DG Civgroup (please post here if you don't know what I am talking about, and someone is sure to point you in the right direction).

New opinions and new citicens always welcome!

Sparrowhawk
Science Minister

	03-07-2003 09:47									#13
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 I would recommend dropping to 0 percent science at this point, to maximise luxuries, and see if we can't trigger a few WLtSDs

I just checked that... even 70% luxuries only creates one celebration (Dominion). The problem is, we don't have any happiness wonders (HG) or extra trade arrows from Caravans to turn into luxuries.

	04-07-2003 02:24									#14
	Remove this text

Only Dominion celebrates?

That's a real shame.

In that case, let's stick with 30% science until we get those marketplaces established.

	04-07-2003 08:10									#15
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Interesting results.

As our esteemed King stated his desires to continue the conquest of the planet on Friday, this was a poll with a short deadline. Still, the results are intriguing, with by far the majority wanting us to keep the tax rate at 70% and the science rate at 30%. What is intriguing is the split on rush building libraries, but as has been made abundantly clear to me, this is the area of the city planner, and as there is no clear direction from the people in this thread (science thread) I recommend that we leave the tax rates as they are, and leave the rush building or not rushbuilding to the city planner.

Sparrowhawk
The ever so diplomatic Science Minister