02-07-2003 21:24									#1
	Getting *ss wiped in tougher Increase the size of your Attachments

I simply don't get it. Using all the tricks and tips that can be found in this forum, optimising my play down to every mouseclick, extensively using pause when decisions have to be made, I still get my *ss wiped come gunpowder age by the AI systematically on 'tougher'.

playing 1vs1 on random map, playing bantu (like the boom possibilities).

I have attached a replay of when I get wiped and I guess from that the hardcore ones of you should be able to see wtf I am doing wrong...?

just so you know, this is not an exceptional game of mine, every single one ends about like this one, have tried about 20 times by now.

Any comments are welcome......

Attachment: playback - 2003.07.02 18'02'00 (wed).zip
This has been downloaded 10 time(s).

	02-07-2003 23:20									#2
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I tried downloading and viewing but the game would not play it, returning me to the previous menu instead. This may be because I have not installed any of the game patches yet, so my question to you is whether you have done this?

	03-07-2003 01:18									#3
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Try playing with comp allies- they can take some hits for you. And, if they have a higher score than you, then your enemies will attack thewm instead of you. This way you can see how and where the comp likes to attack from, and see how you can change how you set up your beginning econ to counter-act their strategies. Hope this helps and good luck.

	03-07-2003 03:08									#4
	Got spare money?

Yes, try and avoid getting ahead on score. That paints to bullseye on you and you alone. If you HAVE to be ahead in points try and get the Kremlin (its a nice wonder for your economy anyway and the attrition helps) and target enemy Supply crap with Fighters or arty. Good luck, I'll look at the replay...

	03-07-2003 03:51									#5
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Download doesn't work. Try again.

	03-07-2003 14:12									#6
	Increase the size of your Attachments

tried re-uploading a recorded game. remember to unzip first...

Your comments about playing against more than one AI I guess make sense, but it should be possible to win still in a 1vs1?

Again, had I been a total newbie I'd accept that I couldn't beat it -- afterall it is well known that the difficulty levels in RON are particularly ruthless -- but having tried abt 20 times now and really (in my opinion) optimising the play down to the last mouseclick I stil don't get it....

You speak about getting ahead on score -- come gunpowder age the AI is systematically at least 50% higher on points that I am -- which just really proves to me that I am being completely left behind.

Anyway, have a look-see and let me know your comments.

Attachment: playback - 2003.07.02 18'34'16 (wed).zip
This has been downloaded 16 time(s).

	03-07-2003 16:29									#7
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I won on thougher by turtling and playing devensive early on, saving hard needed resources for unit upgrades for a later age and disturbing the AI's economy as often as possible.

	03-07-2003 20:04									#8
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

While I'm not an expert, I do win on tougher most of the time. Here are a couple comments on your replay:

- You waited a very long time before getting metal/mining and a university after getting to Age II. I typically get a mine going and a university immediately after Age II to start building up those resources.

- I usually get a tower up fairly early & research attrition techs. You allowed the AI to stay a long time in your territory with no attrition. I generally don't build up a standing army until later than you did, especially on as large a map as you played on. Like a previous poster, I tend to turtle until I have a solid economy and take time to slowly build up a large invasion force.

- You didn't take advantage of the sea -- get a dock up and fish (doesn't count against your pop limit IIRC) and get those ruins on the island.

- I generally only build 1 or 2 granaries or lumber mills. You seemed food-heavy but neglected metal until late.

- You gave up too easily I think with more defensive play you can hold off the AI for quite a while and I think you could've come back in a later Age and won. Get some seige built to counterattack his attacks on your towers, get a fort built for general and spy bonuses etc. It's a somewhat difficult map to play on since you're stretched between two fronts far apart.

	04-07-2003 06:54									#9
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Thanks for posting the newest replay which worked fine.

In addition to the points made in the previous post, I think the thing that held you up the most in the earliest part of the game was the way and order in which you did your research.

The best time to learn a new tech is just before you have a need for it. Otherwise, it's better to use resources for more current and vital needs.

You researched Civics I right at the beginning and then waited a few minutes before founding your second city. I think the food used for this research could have been put to better use at that time. Civics would have been 10% cheaper, too, if you had preceded it by Science I, which you researched immediately afterwards.

The next thing you researched was Classical, followed immediately by Commerce I. Then you waited a long time before doing anything about the new things made available by the age advance. Researching Classical too early delayed the immediate benefits that would have been available by obtaining Commerce I a bit earlier and pre-empted resources that could have been used for more immediate needs.

As a consequence, note that your AI opponent had a market and trade route going by the 3 minute mark, and that you were still building your first market, 2 minutes later. Some of the delay can be attributed to the 25% AI gathering bonus in Tougher, but the timing and order of your research helped put you behind, too.

	04-07-2003 12:09									#10
	Support Apolyton

Your economy is fine except your iron output was way too low. You need to work on combat, you often had the worst troops fighting the AI, counters make a huge difference. You also didn't have Generals or spies. The Generals upgrade increases the defense off units considerably and spies can turn a losing battle into a winning battle and are invaluable for bribing siege units until the AI makes Commandos. Towers should go next to towns only and if you under siege make sure to have 2 ranged units in the town and 2 in the tower. Also make more cavalry and flank with them at a 90 degree angle.

	05-07-2003 14:01									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

thanks for the advice guys, I am definitely seeing an improvement in my game, though I am still getting beaten systematically.

In my last game on tougher the computer reached the fifth age while I was still in the third. He was border pushing me quite heavily in the end, and I tried a desperate attack, to no avail. I have attached a replay so you can see how it goes.

Maybe it is not possible to win on a small (2-3 player) map? Could it be that the AI's 25% resource advantage simply is too much of an advantage on a small map? Could it also be that when playing 1vs1 and thereby having the AI's full attention, that 'tougher' is not possible to win on? Or am I just a whiner...?

have any of you won in this type of game?

Attachment: playback - 2003.07.05 10'39'04 (sat).zip
This has been downloaded 6 time(s).

Last edited by buizzz on 05-07-2003 at 14:08

	05-07-2003 19:08									#12
	Inflate your Upload Space

buizz,

Next time you begin a game save the start and post it here. Maybe some of us will play a game using it and we can compare results and strategy afterwards.

	06-07-2003 10:38									#13
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Once again I couldn't get the playback to work.

	06-07-2003 15:55									#14
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

hm, gotta be careful not to become a whiner with this game, but check out the replay I have attached here. The AI completely wipes me out, winning almost simultaneously on territory, wonder, capital conquer and complete wipe-out.

I unfortunately forgot to save the starting point, but I still welcome any comments and tips you can give me based on the replay.

Its quite amazing, but I refuse to go down a difficulty level, it is becoming a matter of personal honour against this game.

The AI outpaces me on score, tech and unit count from the very outset, and I never am able to catch up.

I will try one last time, and this time remember to save the starting point so that you guys can have a go at it as well.


(attachment removed in edit, since apparently the wrong replay -- can't seem to find the right one, sorry)

Last edited by buizzz on 06-07-2003 at 21:43

	06-07-2003 20:18									#15
	Tired of ads?

buizz,

This replay works, but I'm not sure it's the one you meant to post. In this one all you do is build 5 farms and set up 9 woodcutters, and just let resources accumulate for the next 12 minutes until the AI captured your capital! I must assume that this was a replay of another game you started and left running unattended due to some sort of interruption.

	06-07-2003 21:46									#16
	Remove this text

sorry about that, I have removed the replay from the post. I am playing a new game right now, saving at crucial junctions along the way (including the beginning), and this time I am actually more or less on par with the ai. will post results later including savegames and reply, so we can all have a look at it.

	07-07-2003 00:59									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I won on tougher about 95% of the time and on toughest 50-60%. On toughest an early shortage of woods or not enough mountains near your first 3 cities is usually fatal. There are a few Civs that I have found are especially hard to beat on toughest, Incas, Aztecs and Chinese come to mind.

	07-07-2003 07:10									#18
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I can win on tougher about 1 out of 5, so I am no pro, but I have found one way to win that is lots of fun and, while still tough, makes tactical sense.

That is to choose a water map, like Great Lakes, or Med. I build a dock as soon as possible, set out a bunch of fishermen for my economy, and then concentrate on building a strong navy.

When the computer starts building a dock I destroy it with my navy. This is hard work because the initial naval units are pretty weak.

I place my cities as near the water as possible so that my navy can provide defense (my land forces are weak since resources went to navy)

It is a lot of fun, and very tough because the initial attack ships are very weak. But with the fishermen my economy gets going, and when I get bombard ships it really starts to be a blast.

This provides me with a pretty strong defense and the ability to build my economy. As the computer starts running out of room, the coastal lands, which I dominate, become more important.

These are long, fun games. I don't know if this would work in mp, but try it in sp, it's a kick!

	09-07-2003 03:24									#19
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

The AI's resource bonus has it's greatest advantage in the early game. That's why rushing civs are particularly hard to beat. The only way I've beaten (and seen other's beat) tougher AI is to exploit the AI's weaknesses. It will always attempt to take down forts and towers before progressing further. If you keep your troops just outside your fort they will move in to engage you within the forts range. At this point garrison your army and the AI will take a good 25% hit to it's army before retreating. Make spies and invest in the radius increase to bribe their siege and regarrison your spies immediately. Since you can keep a smaller force by engaging and healing within the fort you can out tech him and that's when the AI's stupidity really starts to shine. It will engage a technologically inferior army. I find tougher easiest to beat on a water map with no more than 4 land masses. The Navy AI is pretty weak. I've noticed that the AI tends to seek Naval superiority before major land assaults if you begin with even a small but aggressive attack on his docks. Lure him into attacking your dock where you've also conveniently built a fort. Invest in all the fort range techs. Build your boats but set the rally point to garrison. Pop out counters to whatever is his first line and take them out. Don't let your boats sink - keep them close to the dock and garrison at 50% or less health. You have to get him to waste those extra resources he gets on fruitless attacks so that you can outtech him. Obviously invest in the forage line of techs that increase healing times when garrisoned. I can upload a game if you want.

	09-07-2003 04:39									#20
	Increase Your PM Length

"Build your boats but set the rally point to garrison."

How do you actually do this? I had a game where I was trying to build up my navy while the AI was sitting on top of my Dock. I had to watch it every minute to keep the ships in the Dock. Can you really set it up so they automatically stay in the dock after they are built?

	09-07-2003 18:48									#21
	Remove this text

Select the dock, click R and then left click on the dock. When you select the dock again, it should be flashing "created units garrison" or something similar.

	09-07-2003 21:21									#22
	Increase Your PM Length

When any building is selected, you can easily set the rally point by right-clicking where you want it to be.

To garrison units on creation, select the building then right click on it.

	10-07-2003 01:42									#23
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

well, finally had my win on tougher. managed to win by turtling while slowly building an army all the time garrisoned inside buildings in my third city. resources were coming in nicely thanks to fishermen (which are almost too good). by the time I was ready to advance to gunpowder age, I had built a nice army. the AI had made its customary attack rather early and wasted itself against the garrisoned units. upgraded to gunpowder age, waited a little while to get all gunpowder age related weapons upgrades, built units upto max unit count (which was 100 at the time) and then sent off the army. quickly took the first city, left only a small rear guard behind (to be reinforced by units still coming out of barracks and stables) and raided the two next cities, the last one of which was the AI's capital.

worked like a charm, thanks you all for tips and tricks!

I still need to improve my handling of the army in combat, and I need to be able to win also on maps without water, so back to the training camp...

have attached the replay from just before I start the attack in case you are interested, of course your critical comments are still welcome.

Attachment: finallyawin.zip
This has been downloaded 6 time(s).

	10-07-2003 19:52									#24
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Try these two tutorials. Believe me, they are very usefull:

Efficient economy

Playing thougher: single players guide

	10-07-2003 21:51									#25
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Buizz,

Well done! I'll look forward to watching the replay. I also recommend those two tutorials. A lot of good info there.

	11-07-2003 00:06									#26
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

just had another win on tougher, am really getting a hang of it now. I am gaining a lot from using the AI's predictability. the AI will attack just before gunpowder age with a relatively balanced army. 4-5 slingers (perhaps upgraded once) garrisoned + level 1 attrition will make the AI lose its army against the city. then I turn on the production machine and mass up an army up the max unit count I can reach, wait for gunpowder age - upgrade (especially artillery is important to upgrade, no use in trying to conquer a city with either of the two first levels of artillery) and go on the attack.

interesting to see that it actually pays off to expand aggressively, though you should think that it would expose me too much. after all, am only using 4-5 slingers to defend, but I guess the terrority denied from the AI is more important. by building a trail of cities towards the AI I also control which city the AI will attack -- it seems to attack the closest one systematically -- and I can organise the defense accordingly.

one interesting observation which I guess has already been made in many other posts, the fishermen are too good, and the AI is too weak in the sense that it does not use them and does not build even a few naval arms to take out my unprotected fishermen. guess a little something for the next patch?

the tutorials helped as well.

	13-08-2003 01:36									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

thought I'd revive this thread, since I have gotten into a losing streak the last twenty-odd games. After some star gazing and reflecting I realised that it is on pure land maps that I can't win over the AI whereas on maps with big lakes or sea (with full use of fishermen) I can win somewhat comfortably.

Do any of you experts have particular advice for playing pure land maps against tougher/toughest AI? I usually build my cities in a trail towards the AI area, but on a pure land map the AI will build up along one of my flanks and tend to attack the 2nd line city just as often as my frontline city where I have organised the defenses. I wonder how to counter this...?

	13-08-2003 02:01									#28
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Did you see the Bantu Boom thread? You can use search to find it. The Bantu are pretty overwhelming against the AI...but if you think about what the AI did to you, the counter is logical: don't just build straight at the AI, if possible, spread out laterally to make a "T" shape with the top toward the AI, then backfill the corners beneath the top. If the AI is on you too fast, invert the T (or make a plus sign, I suppose), refusing your flanks at the operational level. However, I haven't had this problem at "tougher" -- the AI tends to fixate on the front & center city long enough for me to expand laterally...though the AI *will* shift targets after failing a couple of times.

	13-08-2003 13:57									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by buizzz The AI completely wipes me out, winning almost simultaneously on territory, wonder, capital conquer and complete wipe-out.

sound's like you really should play on an easier level.

	14-08-2003 01:07									#30
	Inflate your Upload Space

That was helpful.

I suggest you read two posts in particular.

Using the infinite queue This will help you keep up in production against the AI.

Beating the toughest AI This one identifies certain strategies that are useful against the toughest AI. It should apply to the tougher one as well.