16-04-2001 04:31									#1
	It's Impossible to Enjoy a Game w/o Happy Wonders Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Everyone:

This holds especially true at the emperor and deity levels. The AI has the production advantage on you and uses it to snatch everything away from the human player. I admit to being a perfectionist player (read: fish food), but it's absolutely insane how the AI can just build a wonder in three to six turns at the higher levels.

I can go without any wonders except happiness ones. If you don't have those at the emperor or deity levels, you had just as well trash the game and start over. I have better things to do with my time than tend to a crappy, stagnating civilization whose citizens are freaking out all the f*cking time 'cause their mommas didn't kiss 'em in the morning. Don't even get me started on Elvises or changing percentages. It barely works and it doesn't change the outcome: a stagnant, last-place civilization.

Without happy wonders, you're toast. Simple as that.

CYBERAmazon

	16-04-2001 04:49									#2
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well...there is more than one way to succeed.

There are differnent government forms to choose from.

You can build infastructure to keep citizens under control.Temples,colliseums,cathedrals all keep unhappy citizens content.2 for temple with Mysticism,4 more for colliseum and Electronics and 4 more for cathedral and Theology.Thats 10 without a drop of luxuries.Add in trade improvements and routes and it becomes difficult NOT to celebrate "we love" at 20%.

	16-04-2001 04:57									#3
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For the most part I agree with smash. but to really max wltpd you have to go to 30 or 40 most of the time on luxuries. i do anyway.

	16-04-2001 05:06									#5
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There's always Shakespear's Theatre also. Build this in a high production city (of course) and field a large army free from unhappiness. Make it a high production city with ocean access.

	16-04-2001 05:45									#6
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Yep, just notch the luxuries up to about 40 ish.

	16-04-2001 09:08									#7
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just because you are behind is no reason to panic.The peoples science program works well for playin catch up.Diplomats are very good at research.
Maybe you are ahead in certain areas.Use military to catch up in population.If you have Chivalry and they have Bronze..use the technological advantage as it was intended for example.
Play aggressively when trying to catch up.Do what the ai does to bug you first...become a pesky tyrant


....or die trying

	16-04-2001 16:20									#9
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Go for the double wammy -- take the city containing a key happy wonder and then buy the rest of their empire at half price once their cities fall into dispute ...

------------------
Scouse Git[1] -- git1@scousers.net

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

	16-04-2001 17:08									#10
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I'm currently in a MP Deity-level game with Hydey and Alexander's Horse. I built every single one of the Happy Wonders and just about every other Wonder, to boot. We're late in the 19th century, Horse has just overtaken me in population, and he's only a handful of techs behind me. Which proves that a good player doesn't really need any of the Wonders. It takes a bit longer - and costs quite a few shields and gold more - but you can easily duplicate the effects of all the worthwhile Wonders.

------------------
Founder, ACS Pedantry Institute
Founder, ACS Gourmet Recipe Exchange
Horse and Hydey Wrangler
Mono Rules!
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[This message has been edited by finbar (edited April 16, 2001).]

	17-04-2001 04:00									#11
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Smash:

I limit myself to not stealing techs from AI civilizations. It's a handicap to make my games a bit more "challenging." As for playing aggressive, I suppose I'd have to break out of my perfectionist mode. Which is hard to do, since I love my big, well-defended and well-developed dozen or so cities. I do go warmonger later in the game, though. Usually not before 1500 AD, though.

CYBERAmazon

***

Scouse Gits:

I would, except the Wonders are in Africa and the central Eurasian continent in well-defended Zulu and Russian cities. Moscow and Zimbabwe, to be exact. I'm sitting in North America with the Aztecs and warmongering numerous Sioux as my neighbors. Joy!

CYBERAmazon

	17-04-2001 08:14									#13
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I know how you feel. Thats why I never play emperor and diety the unhappiness is just to irritating. I cant function without my michaelangelo's chapel if I dont get it its even worse then losing leo's shop.

Hmm in your game the Sioux are still alive and you are the aztecs *shudder*. Little to cramped there for my style, the sioux would of been removed from my site as fast as possible .


[This message has been edited by Chris1111 (edited April 16, 2001).]

	17-04-2001 09:36									#15
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What I find most difficult in Diety is building a new city when you already have many of them. The first population point is unhappy (sometimes extra-unhappy!) which means I have to send a military unit with the settler (Monarchy and such), or immediately build a temple via Rush buy (Republic and such). Yeah, I know, I can also hire Elvis but, as you know, that seriously handicaps the city.

Michael's and/or at the very least, J.S. Bach's are such blessings in these situations!

	17-04-2001 09:57									#16
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There's nothing wrong with Elvis keeping a city happy for a while. Remember you're going to be getting at least some trade out of the place while you're going about building a unit for martial law, or a temple, or whatever it takes according to the government you're under.

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Founder, ACS Gourmet Recipe Exchange
Horse and Hydey Wrangler
Mono Rules!
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	17-04-2001 15:26									#17
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A while back they had that Head Start Scenario over in Civ2 Strat. the only wonders available were UN and Apolyton - pardon me, Apollo.
guys still managed to beat that.

I have yet to survive a deity game until the end, so maybe you have a point.

the unhappiness is what keeps me from playing at high levels, but that's one of the things that define it.

Deity, For those who like theri civ REALLY mean".

	18-04-2001 19:02									#18
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I agree that in deity you must have a strategy which addresses unhappiness. The contentment wonders are a natural place to look but I also agree that they are far from the last, or even the best.

As has been said before, the true happiness (as opposed to mere contentment) creators are the marketplace/bank/stock exchange and superhighways working in conjunction with luxury setting/elvis and the steps taken to increase arrow production.

Try using the caravans you squander on building the Wonders on establishing good trade routes and you'll avoid lengthy stagnation.

I agree that there always does seem to be a period when things go slowly. IME this usually signifies that you should be considering a change of gov.t. But of course you need to have prepared the ground. If you've got the trade routes in and managed to develop your land to max arrow production try changing to representative gov.t, disband all those martial law units, turn taxes up for a while (so you can rush plenty of marketplaces et al).

Don't be distracted too much by WLT-Ds. They are far from essential.

In a game with a good start look to be doing this around 100AD.

Carry on building caravans and you'll soon be rolling in cash and ready for some military adventures. Sure, take the Wonders the A1 has been kind enough to build for you if you like. But you still needn't bother if you don't want to.

Along the way you run into the necessity to address defence, trade and exploration issues. Again, Wonders offer help but are not essential.

	18-04-2001 22:56									#19
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Everyone:

To be fair, this was the first bad game I've had at the emperor level in some time. Maybe I was simply due for one — and, boy, did I get it. First time ever without any happiness wonders and behind from the get-go. Ouch.

CYBERAmazon

	19-04-2001 08:00									#20
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Yes, you just have to build alot of temples, Catedrals, and Cols.

	21-04-2001 09:23									#21
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The other trick here would be to go fundy for a few turns and crank taxes and luxuries to increase your wealth. The ai is notorious for slowing its tech rate to match yours....thus you could rush whatever improvements you need

Perhaps SOL is needed for a Communist govt? The double martial law would help you immensely and allow you to field a large army.

I assume being a perfectionist that you would already have temples banks markets libraries etc.... is the problem your gold? Did you not have the money to support your cathedrals which would normally be paid for by Mikes chapel?

Perhaps you didn't have enough trade routes..... it takes longer without the happy wonders to go representative but not that much longer.

Did you handicap yourself by allowing the Aztecs and sioux to live..... i assumed they would be gone. in such a small space ..... you can takeout both countries with ease and not really miss a beat expanding your civ both upwards in NA and southerly towards the Aztecs

perhaps the Great library should have been built instead of marcos in this case. SP mode (mge) its not really necessary to build marcos... you already know the land forms... you know whom the major powers are.... and everyone hates you anyways.

Marcos is only good for finding trading partners on random maps.... embassies are only really needed in about two or three civs max. The other ones are always wiped out early anyways.

	22-04-2001 02:19									#23
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I always build them to make my life easier, but its possible to win without them.

	22-04-2001 10:03									#24
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CYBERAmazon, when i origionally posted i thought you were the Americans.... when i reread it i changed my answer.....

I figure any civ on my land is toast...... this prevents a thorn in your rose garden