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DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:29
Unhappy  Old Post 03-07-2003 05:00
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A Victory for Spammers. Suffering from ads?

quote:
California court rules against Intel in spam case

REUTERS[ WEDNESDAY, JULY 02, 2003 11:42:24 AM ]

SAN FRANCISCO: The California Supreme Court on Monday ruled spammers cannot be sued under state law for property trespass for just sending e-mail - a setback for Intel Corp. - which had sued a former engineer for sending e-mails to up to 35,000 company workers.

The 4-3 ruling reversed a lower court order prohibiting former Intel engineer Ken Hamidi from sending e-mails critical of Intel to thousands of its employees.

Intel claimed the e-mails had trespassed on its private network and had harmed the company by reducing worker productivity.

But the California Supreme Court found that Intel's computer system had not been damaged as a result of the e-mails and, therefore, there was no trespass.

The court declined to expand state common law covering property trespass to apply to e mail whose contents may be objectionable, but which is otherwise harmless.

"Creating an absolute property right to exclude undesired communications from one's e-mail and Web servers might help force spammers to internalize the costs they impose on ISPs (Internet service providers) and their customers," the court wrote.

"But such a property rule might also create substantial new costs, to e-mail and e-commerce users and to society generally, in lost ease and openness of communication and in lost network benefits," the opinion continued. "In light of the unresolved controversy, we would be acting rashly to adopt a rule treating computer servers as real property for purposes of trespass law."

Ken Olson, a San Francisco lawyer for Hamidi, said that means that if someone wants to bring a trespass lawsuit there needs to be proof that the computer system was damaged.

The ruling comes amid a larger battle to curtail spam with Microsoft Corp. and other ISPs suing spammers and federal lawmakers introducing strong anti-spam legislation. The California State Senate has approved a bill that would allow people to sue spammers.

Between 1996 and 1998 Hamidi sent six e-mails to as many as 35,000 Intel workers complaining about Intel's employment practices after he was fired following a disability leave.

Hamidi said he did not breach Intel's computer system and removed people from the list if they requested it.

Intel filed a lawsuit against Hamidi and a Sacramento Superior court issued a summary judgment ordering him to stop sending the e-mails. Hamidi appealed, a divided appeals court affirmed the lower court decision, and he appealed to the state's highest court.

In ruling against Intel, the California Supreme Court said the situation would be similar to someone claiming a mailbox was harmed after reading an unpleasant letter or the telephone was harmed after receiving an intrusive phone call.

Hamidi's lawyers had argued that preventing him from sending the e-mails had violated his rights to free speech, a point on which the state Supreme Court did not specifically rule.

"We're studying the opinion to assess our options as to what we can do in the event Hamidi resumes his spamming of Intel," said Intel spokesman Chuck Mulloy.

Hamidi, who now works as a compliance officer for the California Franchise Tax Board, said he will continue sending e-mails to Intel workers, possibly weekly, to discuss Intel's labor practices.

"For five years I have been muzzled," he said in an interview. "I'm amazingly excited. I cannot describe the feeling."

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
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Feb 2001
time: 00:29
  Old Post 03-07-2003 05:02
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spammers should die

Immortal Wombat is offline Immortal Wombat
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Dec 2000
time: 05:29
  Old Post 03-07-2003 05:05 Visit Immortal Wombat's homepage!
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they will.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
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Feb 2001
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  Old Post 03-07-2003 05:06
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Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

You know, if Dante had lived today, I'm sure there would have been a special place in hell for spammers

BeBro is offline BeBro
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of the Krauts
Mar 2000
time: 06:29
  Old Post 03-07-2003 05:07 Visit BeBro's homepage!
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Got spare money?

Spam is bad

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
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May 1999
time: 13:29
  Old Post 03-07-2003 07:32
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Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

That's not really spam per se, because it's not commercial.

OTOH, the analogy to a mailbox does not work, because the sender pays postage in this case. Stupid judges, get with the times already.

Asher is offline Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:29
  Old Post 03-07-2003 07:33 Visit Asher's homepage!
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spam = unsolicited email

So how is unsolicitied email sent repeatedly to all employees of a company not spam?

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:29
  Old Post 03-07-2003 07:35
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quote:
Intel claimed the e-mails had trespassed on its private network and had harmed the company by reducing worker productivity.


What a moronic argument! If I was the judge I'd rule against them as well for this idiotic position!

Lonestar is offline Lonestar
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Aug 2000
time: 00:29
  Old Post 03-07-2003 07:36 Visit Lonestar's homepage!
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Put an end to popups!

Damn.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

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Jan 1970
time: 00:29
  Old Post 03-07-2003 07:37
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quote:
OTOH, the analogy to a mailbox does not work, because the sender pays postage in this case. Stupid judges, get with the times already.


Yes it does work. The fact that there is a lack of postage doesn't matter at all.

Whaleboy is offline Whaleboy
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Jan 2003
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  Old Post 03-07-2003 07:37 Visit Whaleboy's homepage!
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Spam sucks, but I dont want to see liberty suffer just to eliminate this problem.

I think the battle should be at our individual inbox's and email handlers like Outlook, evolution etc

Ecthy is offline Ecthy
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Mar 2000
time: 06:29
  Old Post 03-07-2003 07:37
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would I be a spammer? I don't want to die

well, sometimes I want

Agathon is offline Agathon
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Dec 2002
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  Old Post 03-07-2003 07:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger
That's not really spam per se, because it's not commercial.


Got it in one. This guy was on CNN this afternoon. This won't affect proceedings against real spammers.

Death to them.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
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  Old Post 03-07-2003 07:44
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Put an end to popups!

quote:
Originally posted by Asher
spam = unsolicited email


unsolicited commercial email

Asher is offline Asher
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Nov 1999
time: 22:29
  Old Post 03-07-2003 07:45 Visit Asher's homepage!
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quote:
spam ( P ) Pronunciation Key (spm)
n.
Unsolicited e-mail, often of a commercial nature, sent indiscriminately to multiple mailing lists, individuals, or newsgroups; junk e-mail.

tr.v. spammed, spam·ming, spams
To send unsolicited e-mail to.
To send (a message) indiscriminately to multiple mailing lists, individuals, or newsgroups.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
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AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:29
  Old Post 03-07-2003 07:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
Got it in one.
How the hell is it not spam? I'm with Asher on this one.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
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  Old Post 03-07-2003 07:47
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Suffering from ads?

quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
quote:
OTOH, the analogy to a mailbox does not work, because the sender pays postage in this case. Stupid judges, get with the times already.


Yes it does work. The fact that there is a lack of postage doesn't matter at all.


No it doesn't. One of the main arguement against spams is they incur a cost against the carriers and end users.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
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  Old Post 03-07-2003 07:52
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Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote:

We all get junk mail at home. It's an accepted fact of life, at least in the U.S. So why is Unsolicited Commercial Email (UCE) -- a/k/a "spam" or "junk email" -- a problem?


From CAUCE

Asher is offline Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:29
  Old Post 03-07-2003 07:55 Visit Asher's homepage!
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Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger
From CAUCE

I'm sorry, what does some group's opinion of spam mean when the dictionary's definition differs?

Why is there discrimination against where the source is? If an individual is repeatedly sending unsolicited mail, it is spam too. Who would argue that it's not?

(Well, don't answer that, we all know the extent of both your and Agathlon's reasoning ability)

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
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Nov 2001
time: 06:29
  Old Post 03-07-2003 08:02
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Is there an official holder of the vocabulary truth in English ?

Or are English dictionaries' definitions written by some private actor to correspond with the general definition in the society ?

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
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Feb 2001
time: 00:29
  Old Post 03-07-2003 08:03
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The latter, sadly

Unlike what you have in France.

Asher is offline Asher
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Nov 1999
time: 22:29
  Old Post 03-07-2003 08:04 Visit Asher's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
Is there an official holder of the vocabulary truth in English ?

Or are English dictionaries' definitions written by some private actor to correspond with the general definition in the society ?

Mine's from the only American dictionary that defined it (a very popular one, American Heritage Dictionary)

It is therefore more reputable than a small advocacy group who are against "Unsolicited Commercial Email", which they then equate to spam. IMHO, unsolicited commercial email is a subset of spam.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
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  Old Post 03-07-2003 08:10
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Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote:
Originally posted by Asher
I'm sorry, what does some group's opinion of spam mean when the dictionary's definition differs?


Because the group's opinion matters more?

quote:
Originally posted by Asher
Why is there discrimination against where the source is? If an individual is repeatedly sending unsolicited mail, it is spam too. Who would argue that it's not?


Let me guess. When a friend of yours sends you e-mail without you asking, it's spam too, yes?

quote:
Originally posted by Asher
(Well, don't answer that, we all know the extent of both your and Agathlon's reasoning ability)


Says the person who keeps falling afoul of logical fallacies, just like right now. A big fat ad hominem.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
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Feb 2001
time: 00:29
  Old Post 03-07-2003 08:11
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Got spare money?

Actually, attacking a person's intelligence can be a valid attack against they're ideas...

Asher is offline Asher
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Nov 1999
time: 22:29
  Old Post 03-07-2003 08:17 Visit Asher's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Because the group's opinion matters more?

Of course. Everyone cares what they think.

quote:
Let me guess. When a friend of yours sends you e-mail without you asking, it's spam too, yes?

If you give your email address to a friend, how is this unsolicited?

quote:
Says the person who keeps falling afoul of logical fallacies, just like right now. A big fat ad hominem.

That wasn't an ad hominem. I'm not tearing down your argument based upon your notorious sillyness, I'm tearing down your argument based upon the incredibly silly notion that mail sent repeatedly and indescrimintely for commercial purposes is somehow different than if an individual does it for personal reasons.

Last edited by Asher on 03-07-2003 at 08:23

The Templar is offline The Templar
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People's Republic of the East Village
Oct 2001
time: 00:29
  Old Post 03-07-2003 09:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
quote:
Intel claimed the e-mails had trespassed on its private network and had harmed the company by reducing worker productivity.


What a moronic argument! If I was the judge I'd rule against them as well for this idiotic position!


eBay v. Bidder's Edge 100 F.Supp.2d 1058 (NDCA).

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
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Sep 1999
time: 23:29
  Old Post 03-07-2003 09:48
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Can you summarize the case? I don't have access to Westlaw from this computer.

The Templar is offline The Templar
Prince
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Oct 2001
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  Old Post 03-07-2003 09:52
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
Can you summarize the case? I don't have access to Westlaw from this computer.


Bidder's Edge's bots were collecting data from eBay. eBay showed a slight performance lag. The judge ruled that the bots were tresspassing and causing damage to productivity. Essentially Intel's argument. (I remembered that one from property class, so it might have been overturned on appeal - but a winning argument previously).

Old wine, new bottles ya know.

MichaeltheGreat is offline MichaeltheGreat
Apolyton Grand Executioner
mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:29
  Old Post 03-07-2003 10:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger
That's not really spam per se, because it's not commercial.

OTOH, the analogy to a mailbox does not work, because the sender pays postage in this case. Stupid judges, get with the times already.


Not if the sender just puts it in your mail.

It would be a pretty absurd extension of trespass law to start including personal property of any kind.

Asher - in the US, it does matter. If the mail is for commercial reasons and crosses state lines (or international boudaries, of course) during it's routing from sender to receivers, then it comes under Federal regulatory power.

If it's non-commercial, it does not, as least under current law. The state's own regulatory power with intra-state email is also limited in the case of non-commercial email.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
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  Old Post 03-07-2003 15:47
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quote:
Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Not if the sender just puts it in your mail.


He still has to bear the cost, though

 
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