03-07-2003 08:06									#1
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Seeing the size of GCA now makes me think that they could be in it pretty deep if CFC can plant their feet and push back at the same time CDG is pushing inward. Perhaps it might be time to make plans in regards to what we should do if GCA starts winning by a large margin, or if CDG/CFC start winning by a large margin?

Thought it might be a good idea to have a place to kick around the math on the war, since we now have the only bird's eye on the entire continent. We can probably predict pretty closely how things are going to go....

	03-07-2003 08:10									#2
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Yes we do need to start planning. Is there a possibility someone will attack "us"?

	03-07-2003 08:33									#3
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NEWSFLASH!

On being informed of the fact that CDG was now at war with them, GCA ambassador HistoryBuff had this to say whilst announcing he was resigning his post:

--WhiteBandit: i'm afraid that the nations of CDG and GCA are now at war ;

--History Buff: whoa! thats not cool. ;

--WhiteBandit: no history buff. it isn't.

Full chat to follow. You heard it here. Live.

And now, back to your regular forum tedium.

	03-07-2003 09:05									#4
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The only thing that should budge us from our program, Republic first and some cities in shape to take advantage of the GA, should be if GCA starts smacking CDG around. We would not want to have GCA as our Southern neighbour in the jungle.

Perhaps, it would be a long shot, if CDG takes GCA's capital we would also be concerned, but how much? Our sims had CDG developing rapidly with workers and settlers to get themselves up to fighting trim. We out stripped them even when we played their position optimally to prepare them for our coming.

They have done nothing of the sort since we did the sims. Assuming CDG did grab GCA's capital, that would give them one additional partially corrupt production centre, if they could keep it. I do not think that would throw the AltSp off in the least considering the waste they have made of their other new cities.

CDG is also going to take losses in the advance on GCA. Not to mention the fact that the better they do against GCA, the less likely GCA will ever be to forget the past and unite with CDG to stop the overwhelming threat that we will be by Republic plus 10 or so.

The way I am seeing these maps, and the activities of the 3 civs on our continent, I don't see us having to stop our forces short of the Southern edge of the land and all that lay in between. One could say that our manifest destiny can be seen approaching, we should ensure that we catch it.

	03-07-2003 10:54									#5
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I'm not so sure we shouldn't immediately send our border patrol Warrior's to both of CDG's border cities on the next turn. If they are undefended, we take them. If they are defended by Warrior's wait for the 3 Swords we can upgrade.

The reason is that if GCA has a lot of units in CFC territory right now, they may be wiped out by a GA driven CDG before our AltSP ever gets going. We don't want to have to deal with CDG for too long, we have our own economy to think of.

CDG is sending units right now for two reasons:

1: They have Immortals; it would be stupid not to use them early. The earlier the better for them.

2: GCA sent troops to CFC and CFC likely provided intle to CDG about how many troops there were and the realtive positions. So CDG feel confident knowing that a majority of GCA forces are not at home. CDG knows it can use it's GA to grab an early advantage on this continent using GCA land and pre-built cities as a spring board.


I'm not talking about us going into our GA right now. I'm talking about sending 3 swords now and maybe 2-3 swords in 6-8 turns from now. Just enough to slow CDG down. We stay on track for The republic and do a full scale attack according to schedule. This is an opportunity that we may not get again. Let's see what CDG has in those 2 cities. If they have Spearmen, we back awya and expalin that we had moved down on request on CFC. We message this notice to CDG even before they get the save. They say "no", that we must go back, and we do. Then we wait for The Republic.

If they only have Warrior defender's we upgrade 3 Swords and send them to first one city, then the other.

If they are undefended, then we take them immediately. We are only 2 tiles away from either cities with two differnet units.

	03-07-2003 10:58									#6
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I disagree...

Taking out those two border cities does nothing in the long run, they are worthless and CDG will surely disband them. We need to take the capital and hopefully the chokepoint and we need much more than 3 swords to do that.

I say we wait and fight a war when we want to. Their GA will not serve them too well, just look at Vox. On the other hand, our GA in a Republic will be just too overwhelming for them.

	03-07-2003 12:02									#7
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We should be talking to GCA as much as possible.

Tell them of the importance of disbanding cities that they have no hope in defending. Letting CDG capture a city where they get gold from your treasury, and can rest/heal and launch into another attack is far worse than just taking a hit by disbanding. Then you can concentrate your defences on the most productive/important cities.



Maybe this is true or not ... who cares... So long as GCA buys it, it means CDG are denied cities.

	03-07-2003 12:51									#8
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I agree H_E. Since GCA built Temples, their cities won't self raze when CDG attacks.


MZ, during a GA, those cities are not 'worthless'. They can produce pretty well. At size one they can both put out 3 spt and at size 2, 5 spt. At the end of their GA they will have a hell of a lot more Spearmen/Warriors/Immortals to deal with than we have planned for. By taking those cities out now, we can keep those units from ever appearing.

All we need to do is send both Warriors in. On that turn we can decide to turn back or continue in on the next turn. It's not a huge gamble on our part.

	03-07-2003 13:45									#9
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I am with nye. No need to change our plan - actually, things are going OUR way better than expected... by attacking (even lightly) CDG now, we would make sure that at least part of their GA power would be directed at us - which there is no need of. And we would reveal our true intentions too early.

It is true that they will be able to produce more units thanks to their GA - but they will use them against GCA, not us, which is just fine. CDG is wasting their GA in despotism, getting their jungle cities to 3-5spt... that means 60-100 raw shields per city for their whole GA. That's 2-3 immortals or 3-5 spears per city. I do not think this is anything prompting a change in our master plan.

EDIT: and keep in mind that it's not 60-100 extra raw shields. It's only 40-60 extra raw shields. That's 2 extra spears or immos per their jungle city. IMHO, nothing we should worry about or change our plans because of.

The more of GCA land CDG grabs, the more we will be able to grab during the First War without having to take upon more than one opponent. As correctly noted before, the cities CDG may take will be of little use to them... IF they take them, that is...

And just btw... it certainly does no harm to our relations with GCA that our warnings have now turned out to be 100% correct...

Last edited by vondrack on 03-07-2003 at 13:57

	03-07-2003 14:07									#10
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Yes, GCA will certainly want to befriend us now. Perhaps we can pull of a coup later on and get a tech or two out of GCA for promising to decalre war on CDG....when the time is right of course. We just need to try to prevent CDG and CDG from teaming up against us in the future, though it would be rather difficult for CFC to get troops through CDG's Northern choke point city in the future. That's why it's important that GCA holds onto that Southern choke point city for now.

I hope that CDG does not wipe out GCA completely; that will make it tough on us in the future.

	03-07-2003 15:55									#11
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I think that it is a possibility that CDG is going for landgrab against CFC, and plant an new city 5 steps SW of Shaharazade (or nearby) that will blockout the silk-resource.
They have been planting useless citys only to landgrab so this is where I should build a city now that CFC is in no possition to make demands

I hope the picture turns up... this is my first try with pictures.

Last edited by jagjef on 03-07-2003 at 16:44

	03-07-2003 15:56									#12
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How can I add an picture not only the link to the picture?
I dont want the picture to be public for anyone to find

	03-07-2003 16:01									#13
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The best thing to do is to use the "upload" feature (at the top of your screen, just below the ad). This uploads the picture to your personal space at Apolyton. Then, you can put the link here.

edit: I think it's not possible to link to certain www-domains directly, like you tried above.

	03-07-2003 16:43									#14
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Picture I hope...

	03-07-2003 17:50									#15
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Bingo.

	03-07-2003 22:44									#16
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack I am with nye. No need to change our plan - actually, things are going OUR way better than expected... by attacking (even lightly) CDG now, we would make sure that at least part of their GA power would be directed at us - which there is no need of. And we would reveal our true intentions too early. It is true that they will be able to produce more units thanks to their GA - but they will use them against GCA, not us, which is just fine. CDG is wasting their GA in despotism, getting their jungle cities to 3-5spt... that means 60-100 raw shields per city for their whole GA. That's 2-3 immortals or 3-5 spears per city. I do not think this is anything prompting a change in our master plan. EDIT: and keep in mind that it's not 60-100 extra raw shields. It's only 40-60 extra raw shields. That's 2 extra spears or immos per their jungle city. IMHO, nothing we should worry about or change our plans because of. The more of GCA land CDG grabs, the more we will be able to grab during the First War without having to take upon more than one opponent. As correctly noted before, the cities CDG may take will be of little use to them... IF they take them, that is... And just btw... it certainly does no harm to our relations with GCA that our warnings have now turned out to be 100% correct...

Their jungle cities won't benefit from a GA at all. Unless a tile already produces a shield or gold, it won't produce anything more. Jungle tiles only produce 1 food... so they don't produce any extra shields or commerce. Their lower cities may have some help though, since they appear to have some unmined shielded tiles, but this will only bring their cities up to the level as though they mined those tiles... bringing them up to the level of what they SHOULD be at.

Thus, their GA is probably going to get them an extra 4 or 5 SPT total throughout their entire empire.

	04-07-2003 01:01									#17
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They do have two or three tiles for those jungles cities to work that produce shields.

	04-07-2003 01:11									#18
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither The only thing that should budge us from our program, Republic first and some cities in shape to take advantage of the GA, should be if GCA starts smacking CDG around. We would not want to have GCA as our Southern neighbour in the jungle.

I'm not really sure this fear of GCA is well-founded.

Just looking at our wonderful new maps it seems to me like the one team we cannot afford to have victorious is CFC. I'm glad that CFC and GCA are fighting, but now that CDG has joined in it seems clear to me that CFC is going to be in a pretty strong position; CFC 1) has the best land available, 2) is in an alliance against only one other team, and 3) will benefit from an awesome UU pretty soon.

Ultimately we want the highest casualties to be on CFC's side in this war. So what if GCA pushes CDG back? It's not like they're going to take on CFC and CDG on simultaneously, and therefore if CDG is wiped out we can just organize a "squeeze" on GCA with CFC.

My suggestion is to make sure CDG's help in the form of Immortals does not take too much burden off of CFC, and this of course means we should attack CDG as soon as realistically possible.

We cannot afford to have CFC build/expand peacefully ever again.


Dominae

	04-07-2003 03:49									#19
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I am of the Mind that we follow the AltSP. With CDG being in a Despotic GA and having piss poor cities shows that they really don't have a clue.

People, we still have things that we NEED to do to get ready for our own GA, the worst thing that we can do is to jump into this war without any regard to our future. So What if CFC survives this, from their city placements and they way that they have been playing, it's not anything that we should really worry about.

What I would like to see is a bit more intel and I just came up with a way to find it out. I request that the Area X do some things to "bracket" the total strenghts of our neighbors. As we are stonger than them, BFM can take a save and then disband units until he sees a strength change in the Mil Advisor. This will giving a number to work off of to get a better Idea what they have and then he can track it over time.

THIS is what is what we will need to better determine what we will ultimately do. If we see that CDG is becoming too strong from their GA, then we can make some plans then. But I think that we are in the best position and that we should NOT BE TOO HASTY.

MoI E_T

	04-07-2003 04:16									#20
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Ahh, ah ah.

Disbanding units to see strengths would be a massive no-no. No unalterable actions with the save please.

Think about it, there is no way the weaker civ could ever do the same. ergo, way no fair, even if taksey-backsies were cool. Which they're not.

	04-07-2003 04:43									#21
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I agree that this is unfair, although shifting laborers to see how the lower rated civs are doing in terms of GNP, Mfg, etc. is also impossible for the weaker civs. Of course- there are no un-alterable changes to the save, but is it conisdered appropriate by the other teams?

As for intervening in this war: Not for now, and not unless something really big happens (on of these: "you'll know when it happens" sort of event). We'll be blowing our cover too soo, while we're just increasing the economic gap between us and our rivals. When the dust settles down, we'll be the continental economic powerhouse, with the ability to turn it into military power on the fly. By staying out of the war we are making ourselves look peaceful and harmless, and reduce the chance of an alliance against us later on. When this war ends, the surviving teams are likely to focus on licking their wounds as well consolidate their new holding.
They'll be in no mood of continued fighting, and this gives us a perfect opportunity of crushing them one by one.

Stay out of it for now, and keep doing what we're so good at: economic buildup and increasing our diplomatic influence...

This is gonna be so great when the bubble burst, and hordes if swordsmen and merecnaries come marching from the north!

	04-07-2003 04:48									#22
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No, but any civ can min/max there food, shields, and commerce. And here's the key, the changes have no permanent effect.

What about spending gold on espionage and then reloading? What about doing the combats, not liking the results, and then trying again a different way? I am sure these things are proscribed. Disbanding units to see just how weak another civ is is in the same category.

	04-07-2003 04:51									#23
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That makes sense: everything that requires you make changes to re-load can be counted as cheating...

	04-07-2003 12:31									#24
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Agreed - the simple rule of thumb is: do whatever you wish as long as you do not have to reload the save in order to "fix" whatever you did while performing the tests.

	04-07-2003 20:05									#25
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Well, it was an Idea. I figured that it wouldn't be a long the lines of cheating, as we aren't moving units differently OR making different attacks OR conducting espiange (sp). In other words, we aren't Actively cheating. Whereas, disbanding a few units has NO effect except to lower our Mil Streight in relationship to them.

The same argument could be made about running sims that include the other civs, to see what they can and can not do.

This is a form of Intel gathering, it is NOT cheating.

E_T

	04-07-2003 20:56									#26
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I had the same idea a while ago but rejected it for the reasons NYE brought up.

	05-07-2003 09:04									#27
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It's a creative idea, but I don't think it's apropriate either.

	06-07-2003 13:39									#28
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About intervening in this war:

Have we thought about the possibility of financially supporting GCA during their war?