04-07-2003 22:44									#1
	Republicans Fighting Against Davis Recall Got spare money?

quote: Republicans Fight Davis Recall Marvin: 'This Is Not A Banana Republic' A small group of Republicans plans to raise money to oppose the recall of Democratic Gov. Gray Davis, saying it could lead to an "endless cycle of political instability." "It could destroy whatever shred remains of civilized political discourse in this great state," GOP consultant Scott Barnett said in announcing the formation of Republicans Against the Recall. Barnett was joined at a news conference outside a state office building by developer Mike Madigan and Bill Marvin, a former chairman of the San Diego County Republican Party, who said he was no fan of the governor. "I'm not here to praise Caesar and I'm also not here to stick a knife in Caesar's back," Marvin said. "I'm here in defense of the process." The state GOP should focus its efforts on helping President Bush win California in next year's election and electing Republicans to the legislature, he said, instead of gambling on a recall. "This is not Venezuela, folks," Marvin said. "This is not a banana republic." More ... http://www.nbc11.com/politics/2309177/detail.html

I really have no opinion on the recall matter. I like the idea of having accountability, which is what a recall provides, but I also agree with the notion that it could bring instability. I'm torn on Davis... he's really screwed the budget up, although some of the problems were out of his control. And almost every other state in the union has had budget problems. It will be interesting to see how this pans out.

	04-07-2003 22:51									#2
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The problem I see with the recall is that no one yet has porvided any plans about how a new gov. could actually meet this budgetary black hole coming better than davis, and the political energies of the satte, instead of focusing on that budget black ole, get sucked into this issue. Couldn't they have started this after a budget was approved for the year?

	04-07-2003 23:12									#3
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quote: Originally posted by GePap The problem I see with the recall is that no one yet has porvided any plans about how a new gov. could actually meet this budgetary black hole coming better than davis,

That's really not the point, although Davis has so little political capital (i.e. negative) that all he can do in the legislature is plead and lecture.

The real issues are that Davis presided over huge budget increases, while not focusing on improved quality of service - so state ineffiency went up, and the level of service improvement did not come close to matching the level of increased expenditure.

Davis panicked in the electricity crisis, sent all sorts of mixed and contradictory signals, then signed long term power contracts at the peak of the market, then tried to play games to reneg on them. Thus the financial markets as a whole, not just utility providers, view the state as untrustworthy, and likely to deal in bad faith.

Davis claimed he'd "solved" the power crisis, which went away as a result of recession, cooler summers and winters wet enough to recharge hydro resources. Davis completely tried to duck the issue of his signing high priced contracts and creating a huge future obligation, because Davis thought he could BS his way out of those contracts.

Davis was responsible for cooking state budget and revenue projections prior to his re-election campaign, to disguise the extent of the coming crisis, so it wouldn't be an election issue. Then magically, after he's reelected, whooopsies, California has some budget problems.

So the issue isn't who can clean up the mess better, it's whether or not Davis' lack of integrity, which is injurious to the state, should be tolerated.

quote: [quote] and the political energies of the satte, instead of focusing on that budget black ole, get sucked into this issue. Couldn't they have started this after a budget was approved for the year?

The budget is a legislative process, involving the governor. The recall is a popular process, involving petitions to go on the ballot, just the same as California's proposition process. If Davis had any real support, and was solving the budget in any real fashion, he wouldn't have to give a second thought to a recall.

Davis would love to tie the budget and recall issues together, to force the recall to be delayed until the March 2004 primary election, when the Dem political machine will be active, and will have to bail him out to spare themselves the embarassment of a successful recall, whether they want to bail him out or not.

	04-07-2003 23:14									#4
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The recall effort began within weeks of Davis's election last fall. William Safire has written against it, and a few days ago I read a column by Chris Ruddy (of NewsMax!!) that condemns it. But it goes on, and seems close to getting on the ballot.

Part of living in a republic is putting up with the fact that the other side gets to govern when they win the election. If you don't accept that, then you're undermining the system. The Republicans are acting the way they did during the Clinton impeachment.

	04-07-2003 23:19									#5
	Re: Republicans Fighting Against Davis Recall Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Sava I really have no opinion on the recall matter. I like the idea of having accountability, which is what a recall provides, but I also agree with the notion that it could bring instability.

The "stability" thing is more myth and fearmongering than anything else. A governor has to be extremely unpopular for people to be motivated to remove him - it's never been done in California's history. One could argue that there's less "stability" in having elected officials essentially untouchable for four years, once they skate past an election, no matter how they screw up.

quote: I'm torn on Davis... he's really screwed the budget up, although some of the problems were out of his control. And almost every other state in the union has had budget problems. It will be interesting to see how this pans out.

Actually, a majority of the budget problems, and much of the state's loss of credibility and rating in the financial markets, is directly in Davis' control. The state has tons of money, but in all sorts of special purpose funds, and bureaucratic games. The state has lots of unnecessary agencies, and an incredibly poor efficiency in delivering services compared to the revenue costs.

BTW, the Davis defenders like to point out how every other state in the union has budget problems, but they don't bother with the fact that California's budget problems are about the size of the rest of the states combined, and California already has the highest overall tax burden.

	04-07-2003 23:21									#6
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quote: BTW, the Davis defenders like to point out how every other state in the union has budget problems, but they don't bother with the fact that California's budget problems are about the size of the rest of the states combined, and California already has the highest overall tax burden.

good points... do you thin Davis should be recalled, MtG?

	04-07-2003 23:23									#7
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quote: The real issues are that Davis presided over huge budget increases, while not focusing on improved quality of service - so state ineffiency went up, and the level of service improvement did not come close to matching the level of increased expenditure.

And the very public now signing those petitions went along with all of it, to the point that they elected davis yet again. And the state legislature went along as well, to all that Davis precided over. Oh, and you forgot to mention that the budget back hole was also due to massive tax cuts, which i am sure the public backed as well.
And now thatthere is this crisis, lets spend our time trying to kick Davis out, wih=thout thinking much about how the next governor will undo all that was done by davis, and the legislature, and the voters (who could have started a recall when Davis was doing all the things you said above, BUT didn't)

	04-07-2003 23:26									#8
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The fighting against the Davis recall should be paired with an indictment of his policies and the complicity of the democrats in those policies.

The quotes above don't give me much confidence. Davis shouldn't be compared with a figure of great power (Caesar) or perserverence (Chavez). Rather, they should attempt to paint the democrats with the broad brush of Davis. For instance, they could pick out 5 or 10 leading democratic figures and attach them rhetorically to the Davis tarbaby.

The Republicans would be best served by 999,999 signatures on the recall petition.

	04-07-2003 23:27									#9
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That would be highly unliekly to work. Even after Davis falls, the most likely replacement would be a democrat as well.

	04-07-2003 23:28									#10
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quote: Originally posted by uh Clem Part of living in a republic is putting up with the fact that the other side gets to govern when they win the election. If you don't accept that, then you're undermining the system. The Republicans are acting the way they did during the Clinton impeachment.

So we certainly shouldn't have hounded ol' Nixon out of office, then should we?

Of course, Davis should be rewarded, and the state's resident's punished, because Davis concealed the extent of the budget crisis, because he committed the state to high-priced contracts for no good reason because he thought he'd later be able to get out of them, etc.

The Republicans aren't doing **** - it takes a majority of the voters of this Democrat state to remove the governor from office. The poll numbers in California among registered Democrats for removing Davis are high. If Davis is seen as so bad he can't even count on support from the committed members of his own party, then he has some real problems.

You can't "undermine the system" by using a part of it as provided by law for the very purposes it was provided.

I'm not surprised that professional politicians and their whores are coming out against the recall - the same way they come out against term limits, real campaign finance reform, or any other measure that makes politicians accountable to those who put them in positions of high responsibility and trust.

If the recall succeeds, it will send out a message to virtually every non-Federal elected officeholder that the people are fed up with the status quo, and that because you and your party machine may bullshit your way to election, but you're not exempt from accountability for your actions.

God forbid the common rabble have more to say in the political process.

	04-07-2003 23:31									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Sava good points... do you thin Davis should be recalled, MtG?

Hell yeah!

And BTW, I've never voted for a Republican governor, and I voted for Davis the first time (not in the reelection though, since I wasn't not a California resident) but I'll vote to recall Davis, and if Republicans are the only ones on the ballot, then I'll pick one to replace Davis. In fact, I've changed my legal residency back so I can vote in California elections (the bastards tax me the same whether I'm resident or non-resident, so why the hell not?), specifically to recall that greasy SOB.

	04-07-2003 23:34									#12
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quote: God forbid the common rabble have more to say in the political process

The already do, every so often: they are called elections. The US has never been a direct democracy. It would also be nice if the whole porcess did not get started by a partisan that has spent millions of dollars to get the whole campaing moving. It was not a bunch of citizens that just got together and started to do this and begun with small grass roots support. It was stared by a rich partisan willing to spend millions to get it done. So this is not a full "victory for the common people", given the champion leading the campaign.

	04-07-2003 23:38									#13
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Davis sucks. Nobody's ever disputed that, and lots of Democrats have disliked him more than Republicans do.

But spewing BS, etc, (and from a politician of all people) doesn't fall into the same category as criminality. The Nixon analogy falls flat.

Maybe his recall would teach politicians something, but forcing Californians to put up with him for another 3-1/2 years might teach the voters something, as well.

	04-07-2003 23:39									#14
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Oh come on you know everybody wants Ah-Nold for governer of california!

	04-07-2003 23:40									#15
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Recall his punk ass

Then put the Terminator or **** Riorden in charge.

But not Bill Simon.

	04-07-2003 23:45									#16
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I'm leaning toward supporting the recall, but there should be an open election... not just switching to a Republican. Personally, I'd like to see someone in there who has a plan on fixing the problem. But I'm against recalling just for the sake of recalling.

	04-07-2003 23:47									#17
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quote: But I'm against recalling just for the sake of recalling.

I'd think you'd be for that .

	04-07-2003 23:49									#18
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It is an open election: once Davs is recalled, anyone can run for the office, and when I mean anyone, i mean each party could have multiple candidates. You could in theory have 5 dems and 4 reps. running for governor after he is recalled, if recalled.

Of the reps, Riorden porbalby has the best chance, but who knows how many would put thier hat in the ring.

	05-07-2003 00:03									#19
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quote: Originally posted by GePap quote: The real issues are that Davis presided over huge budget increases, while not focusing on improved quality of service - so state ineffiency went up, and the level of service improvement did not come close to matching the level of increased expenditure. And the very public now signing those petitions went along with all of it, to the point that they elected davis yet again.

The Republicans sabotaged the election by putting up the farthest right of three candidates, who essentially ran on a social-conservative platform. People elected Davis not because they liked him, but because they liked Simon even less. Polls showed Riordan would have waxed Davis' ass, and Issa, much less known, would have run virtually in a dead heat. But the state Republican party went for Simon, who was clearly unelectable in this state.

quote: And the state legislature went along as well, to all that Davis precided over.

Yes, a primarily liberal Democrat legislature. Most of the abuse and fiscal inefficiency is in the state executive and special purpose agencies (Government Code agencies), which are nominally under the executive branch.

quote: Oh, and you forgot to mention that the budget back hole was also due to massive tax cuts, which i am sure the public backed as well.

Partisan bullshit. There are no "massive tax cuts" unless you play Enron-Davis games. California still has by far the highest aggregate tax rates for businesses and individuals, and the highest marginal personal income tax rate comes in at a very low income point compared to other states.

By the state constitution, the state must run a balanced budget, so when revenues exceed expenditures, that money must be spent or returned to the taxpayers. Explain to me how when the 1997 budget was 67 billion, and the 2002 budget was 78 billion, after recognizing a 12 billion drop in revenue over the previous year, that a total tax relief of 4.3 billion for reduced motor vehicle registration fees (a primarily "working class" tax that had been raised constantly over the years, to be among the highest in the US, despite California's many other forms of taxation), and 126 million in tax cuts target towards the elderly and rurual poor constitute "massive" tax cuts that are major contributors to a potential 35-38 billion shortfall?

The "massive" 15% tax cut in corporate income tax and personal income tax actually increased revenue, since they were in absolute terms the highest in the US before being cut, and just one more impediment to businesses locating here. They also came into effect several years ago, and still leave California with the highest personal income tax (total exposure, not marginal rate), and 7th highest corporation income tax rate. That is, 7th, as long as you ignore the fact that California is the only jurisdiction that taxes Sub-S corporations (also taxed as a partnership), California has by far the highest worker's comp rates, and when you add on business property taxes, sales taxes, and California's taxing of income earned outside California, it's still the highest overall.

quote: And now thatthere is this crisis, lets spend our time trying to kick Davis out, wih=thout thinking much about how the next governor will undo all that was done by davis, and the legislature, and the voters (who could have started a recall when Davis was doing all the things you said above, BUT didn't)

The voters didn't start a recall because they were misled. If the voters knew the truth at the time of the election, it's a good chance that a solid Democrat state might have elected a Republican social conservative. Davis was worried enough about that possibility that he lied, and the state executive branch played games with the budget numbers. That's one convenient prerogative of being in office. Now the voters know the truth, and they have a right to speak.

	05-07-2003 00:15									#20
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quote: Originally posted by uh Clem Davis sucks. Nobody's ever disputed that, and lots of Democrats have disliked him more than Republicans do. But spewing BS, etc, (and from a politician of all people) doesn't fall into the same category as criminality. The Nixon analogy falls flat.

Davis' office is already under one criminal probe (unless it was quietly dropped) relating to staffers insider trading in energy companies dealing with the state during the energy crisis. A number of staffers resigned as a result.

There's no federal crime involved in a state officeholder committing fraud by having state staffers cook budget projections, and you can guarantee that there's no state level investigative authority that will examine the issue.

quote: Maybe his recall would teach politicians something, but forcing Californians to put up with him for another 3-1/2 years might teach the voters something, as well.

"Forcing" the voters. How democratic of you. Go back to the USSR.

	05-07-2003 00:17									#21
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CCCP

	05-07-2003 00:18									#22
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quote: Originally posted by GePap It is an open election: once Davs is recalled, anyone can run for the office, and when I mean anyone, i mean each party could have multiple candidates. You could in theory have 5 dems and 4 reps. running for governor after he is recalled, if recalled. Of the reps, Riorden porbalby has the best chance, but who knows how many would put thier hat in the ring.

It's actually a single process, with two parts.

First is an up or down vote on the recall itself, then you vote for a candidate on the same ballot. Anyone who pays a filing fee, or anyone who gets 10,000 signatures, is on that ballot.

Even if you vote no on the recall, it's prudent to vote for a replacement.

If the majority of votes is in favor of the recall, whichever candidate has the most votes becomes governor-elect as soon as the result is certified by the Secretary of State, and is sworn in immediately thereafter.

	05-07-2003 02:07									#23
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Terminator for California Governor!

	05-07-2003 02:10									#24
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Latest poll results show 51% in favor, 42% against, with Feinstein and Riordan the most popular candidates. Half of those in favor said they wouldn't vote for Arnold.

	05-07-2003 04:07									#25
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Whatever happens, California would never elect some stupid, right-wing actor as Governor.

Guy from LA Times being interviewed on NPR said Feinstein & Riordan are top choices. Riordan is sane, for a Repuke. Probably why he's never gone anywhere nationally.

Oh well, I don't live there...

	05-07-2003 04:21									#26
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I don;t see Feinstein running at this point: she is sitting pretty in the senate. As for the possible replacement: Do they fill out Davis's term, or do they get 4 years?