05-07-2003 03:49									#1
	Anyone want to beta test the new Conquests civs/UUs with me? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Now that I've got you in here, let me explain what I mean (no, I'm not a beta tester for Conquests, sorry):

There's a lot of discussion going around on the net as to what the new civs will be, specifically their trait combination and their UU. Everyone has their guesses, and some of them make a lot of sense. For instance, I'm betting the Incans will look like this:

Traits: Industrious/Expansionist
UU: Incan Scout, 0/0/1 treat all terrain as Roads

(If you're thinking that this UU is too good, consider that the Incans cannot trigger a GA with it, just like the Americans.)

So here's the idea: 1) we come up with a list of "best guesses" for all the new civs, 2) we create a mod/scenario with all these new civs added in (clearly a requirement for each new UU is that it can be created through the current PTW editor), 3) we play out the game, testing out these new civs before we even purchase a copy of Conquests.

Obviously we'll miss out on the cool new animations for the leader-heads, and we'll have to reuse old UU anims for each of our new variants (just like alexman did in the "Gallic Glory" AU, where stock Civ3 players played with "Gallic Swordsmen" which were nothing more than modded Jaguar Warriors).

Also, a lot depends on how good our info is on the Conquests civs and their UUs. Then again, it's not like we lose anything if we're wrong.

It would be cool to make this an AU course. It would be a chance to try something new to everyone, and we could discuss the viability of the theoretical new units afterwards.

Does this sound like a good idea to anyone (other than me!)?


Dominae

	05-07-2003 04:48									#2
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It sounds like a great idea. Too bad I can't participate.

	05-07-2003 04:53									#3
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quote: Too bad I can't participate.

True. Then again, you get to do the same thing...with the real thing!


Dominae

	05-07-2003 05:02									#4
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I'd like to do that... I don't know about any guesses though... But I will surely play!

	05-07-2003 15:42									#5
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An Incan Scout UU such as you describe would make the Incas vastly superior to the Americans. The Golden Age situation would be at best only marginally better for America (which can probably trigger a GA shooting down enemy bombers on air intercept missions if nothing else, but I've never actually tested that), and the advantage of the Incan Scout over regular scouts would be immense. Consider, especially, that Incan Scouts could move along the tops of hills and mountains to get a better view, while conventional scouts often have to choose between speed and vision.

	05-07-2003 17:51									#6
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I knew someone was going to disagree with the Incan Scout I presented! I purposefully presented my version as a little powerful because: 1) I knew it would catch people's attention, and 2) I'm expecting many of the UUs in Conquests to be rather powerful (sort of like in the expansion to SMAC, although not quite so drastic).

The point here is not to get hung up on any specific version of the new units. Obviously some of them will be "wrong", and maybe slightly unbalanced. We're not all game designers. If we fall into endless debate about this, we'll miss our shot at a good thing.

How would you guys design the Incan Scout? 0/0/3 is pretty boring, no?


Dominae

	05-07-2003 19:51									#7
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If I were doing it, I'd go with 0/1/2, treats all terrain as grassland. That way the unit has at least some potential to trigger a GA on defense (and can defend itself against wandering barbarians, unlike the standard scout), but the lack of offense keeps it from becoming an expansionist version of the Jaguar Warrior. The speed advantage over rugged terrain plus the ability to defend against barbs would make it nice but not overwhelming.

0.0.2, treats all terrain as grassland, and 0/0/3 without other advantages seem like the more conventional prime possibilities to me.

	06-07-2003 05:43									#8
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ultra early GA sucks imho, so i'd prefer no defence but more movement ;-)

	06-07-2003 14:21									#9
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Incas were mountain people, yes? How about 0.0.2 but hills and mountains as clear?

I think the idea of trying to second guess the designers and try out some stuff that might be in Conquests could be fun.

Trebuchet - with Feudalism and 6.1.1 bombardment, 30 shields but no resource requirement? That way it would be better than catapults, not as good as cannon but still worthwhile if you don't have saltpeter.

Last edited by CerberusIV on 06-07-2003 at 19:54

	06-07-2003 20:05									#10
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According to the latest batch of screenshots the Inca Scout appears to be 1/1/1. I assume it treats all terrain as grassland/roads or something to differentiate it from a normal warrior.

Also, the Hittite UU is a variation on the chariot - no stats in the screenie though.

This post has a link: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...637#post2150637

	07-07-2003 09:55									#11
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Don't worry, we'll balance them out so you don't have to.

	07-07-2003 15:16									#12
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet According to the latest batch of screenshots the Inca Scout appears to be 1/1/1. I assume it treats all terrain as grassland/roads or something to differentiate it from a normal warrior.

I'm going to assume that it treats all terrain as roads. Having only one move, I don't think all terrain as grassland will help it any.

	07-07-2003 15:22									#13
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Good point.

me =

	07-07-2003 15:48									#14
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I wonder how much the inca scout will cost to build.

20 shields perhaps? It has the 1A and 1D that the regular scout doesn't have, but if it costs twice as much as a scout.. that means you won't be able to cover as much ground with one inca scout compared to 2 normal scounts.

2 scouts = 4 potential tile movements in different directions
1 inca scout = 3 tile movements in one direction

there is of course, a difference in unit upkeep

but with an attack and defense rating, the inca scout has other uses when the map has been revealed and civs contacted. I wonder if you can use it as MP for your cities.

so, assuming that it costs 20 shields and you can use it to attack/defend + MP, which scout is better? is the inca scout overpowered?

	07-07-2003 16:04									#15
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quote: Originally posted by PeaSoup 1 inca scout = 3 tile movements in one direction *SNIP* so, assuming that it costs 20 shields and you can use it to attack/defend + MP, which scout is better? is the inca scout overpowered?

So this makes the Inca Scout effectively 1/1/3

The Aztec Jaguar Warrior is 1/1/2 and only costs 10 shields. It's a good UU, but not considered over-powered.

If the Inca Scout is 20 shields it wil equate to paying 10 shields for an extra movement point over the JagWarrior. That doesn't sound unbalancing to me.

	07-07-2003 16:23									#16
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet If the Inca Scout is 20 shields it wil equate to paying 10 shields for an extra movement point over the JagWarrior. That doesn't sound unbalancing to me.

but combined with the expansionist trait, you would be able to get better goodies from huts with the inca scout than the jag, so I think it's worth the extra shields.

but comparing it with a normal scout, which it replaces, I think I'd prefer the normal scout.

With the same shield investment, 2 scouts can explore in different directions, so more chances for huts and contacts, where one Inca scout will need to do more backtracking if it hits a coast.

It's A/D rating isn't high enough to compete with other 20 shield units, but the 3 move will help it capture plenty of workers.

So I guess it doesn't seem to be overpowered, but if it were to cost 10 shields.. that's a different story.

	07-07-2003 16:27									#17
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Do we know for sure that the Inca's are Expansionist, or that the Inca Scout replaces the Scout, or are these just educated guesses? They would be very sensible guesses, of course, but I'm just wondering if they're established as fact yet.

	07-07-2003 16:38									#18
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I don't believe it's been confirmed, but I'm not following the development that closely.

For all we know, the Inca scout is just a cheaper version of the warrior with normal movement.

That'll give a new meaning to the words "cannon fodder" :lol

	07-07-2003 16:48									#19
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You can't get cheaper than 10 shields. That it isn't necessarily a scout replacement is a good point though. However it would be confusing to call a unit that isn't a scout a scout and I can't see that they would do that.

	07-07-2003 18:07									#20
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Does anyone follow all the rumor mills for Conquests? It would be nice to have some sort of list we could work with here. So far we're only discussing the Incan Scout.

With the new screenshot, my guess becomes: 1/1/1 replaces the Scout, treats Mountains/Hills as Roads. That's a powerful unit, considering that the bumpy regions are the most useful for exploration, added to the fact that the Incans would start the game with an offensive unit (kind of makes Tiny maps seem unfair). I'm expecting all the new UUs to be pretty darn good (to boost Conquests sales) although this one is far from "broken".


Dominae

	07-07-2003 18:24									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae So far we're only discussing the Incan Scout.

The Hittite UU is called "Three Man Charioit", which is all we know about it - a city is building it in a screenshot.

The Mayan UU is, IIRC, a Mayan Javelineer and the Sumerian one is an Enkidu Warrior.

It's hard to imagine what they'll be like when you just know the names. AFAIK the Inca Scout is the only one of the units to appear in a screenshot.

Another screenie features a Sokai (sp?) Warrior Monk, which is 2/3/2 - it seems likely that it is from one of the scenarios and not a normal UU though.

	07-07-2003 20:20									#22
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Of course, we don't need to come up with exactly what Firaxis is using for the new UUs. If they are reading this, and you guys come up with a cool, balanced unit, they might use it instead of what they are using. Or is it too late for that?

	07-07-2003 21:08									#23
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Here are my ideas for the Incan Scout. We already know it's 1/1/1, so I've gone from there. First we off we have to determine if it's a Scout or Warrior replacement. My guess is Scout, because it would be confusing if a Warrior would be named 'Scout'. If you're interested in this project, please take a minute to think these through (unless otherwise noted, all variants cost 10 Shields):

1. Ignore movement costs for Hills and Mountains
2. No Upkeep
3. Build Colony, Build Outpost
4. No special abilities (other than start with a Warrior if Expansionist)
5. Invisible, cost 20 Shields
6. Treat all terrain as Roads, cost 20 Shields

Please indicate which one you like best. I would really like to get this project off the ground, and now is a good time to start.

Edit: As alexman suggests, we could also come up with an Incan Scout that's not 1/1/1 even if those are the stats of the unit they're beta-testing right now. I just the stats as a guide, since there's so many possibilities.


Dominae

	07-07-2003 21:14									#24
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Oh, and concerning #5 above, I would assume Outposts would be given the ability to spot Invisible units in response to this new UU, making them actually useful (when playing against the Incan civ, that is). Not unlike the invisibility mechanic in RTS games.


Dominae

	07-07-2003 22:24									#25
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1/1/3... have one at the start of the game... can anyone say ultra early scout rush? MP - say opponent is 12 tiles away... if you're exploration is lucky then you can hit him on turn 4!! He probably hasn't made a warrior yet!

Now if Inca gets a normal scout to start with it is less unbalencing.

	07-07-2003 23:05									#26
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Quite right Panzer32, my #6 should strictly be a Warrior replacement.


Dominae

	08-07-2003 00:36									#27
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1/1/1 all terrain as roads at 20 shields.

Better than a jag warrior for mobility but without the fast retreat option.

Mayan Javelineer - 2/2/1 spearman replacement for 20 shields?

Hittite Chariot 2/2/2 for 30 shields?

	08-07-2003 01:28									#28
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Your #6 as a replacement for warrior would probably be my favourite.

	08-07-2003 03:58									#29
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quote: 1. Ignore movement costs for Hills and Mountains

wouldn't make much sence as movement is only 1, so no difference if flat terrain or mountains or jungle

i s'pose no. 6 makes most sence. slightly faster than the jaguar warrior (3 instead of 1-2 movement), but only 1 "attack"-move

	08-07-2003 12:02									#30
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I agree with #6.