05-07-2003 08:16									#1
	What Were They Thinking? + My changes Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I have been playing Civ since Civ 1 came out, and I thought in Civ 2, they had things down really well... Units all seemed at good strenghts, and everything had a weakness, example, taking a city with city walls and mech infantry was extremely difficult with Armor, but with howitzers it could be done. However, howitzers were slow and had weak defence. Everything seemed in balance.

Igot civ 3 the day it was out... and after playing a few days, I was having fun, but the unit design seemed very flawed.. I posted something like this long long ago, and now that im back into the game and playing ptw, ill say it again:

WTF were they thinking when they designed these units!? some examples: Marine: is this the most patheticaly underpowered unit or what!? 8/6 for 100 shields? are you kidding me? it takes like 12 marines to take a size 7 city with 3 infantry in it, and thats if your lucky, the first few attacks will actually HELP the enemy, making the infantry elite.

Paratroopers: Same thing... way underpowered. 6/8? So... men with at least semi automatic rifles, some machine guns, and maybe some 75mm field guns dropped in with them have the same attack as napoleonic wars- civil war era cavalry? And you make us pay 100 sheilds for it? yeah.... ok...

Infantry: 6/10 too weak on the attack... I think they should have more defence, as we all know what would happen to men who would charge forified men in ww1/ww2 but 6 attack? come on...

Battleships: Before effective carrier aircraft, battleships owned, period. over a foot thick of armor, 12- 18 inch main guns, 20 miles ange. They could destroy multiple other ships at once. I asked someone I know who had been in the navy for many years, actually the only reason we dont still use battleships is it just costs too much, and take too many men to work it, but as a fighting machine its still excellent, even in the age. Their bombard strength of 8 is pathetic, as well as their defence and attack strength in Civ3.

Guerillas 6.6 90 sheilds. Ok again..semi auto - full auto assult rifles, 6/6 and so expensive? Oh wow, they dont reqire a resourse! Yippie! Ive NEVER not had a needed resourse, this is a useless unit.

All artillary units: Bombard is plain too weak. They make nice field units, but ae horrible at bombing cities. Just too weak.

Well I can go on, but im not gonna bore you. I just dont understand who made this stuff up. Whats with the freaking defensive advanatge in the industrial/modern age? Example: Mech infantry: 18 defence. Fortified, 22.5 In a size 15 city (90% of cites are metropolise size in the modern age) so 45. What about a city built on a hill or with civil defence? 67. What about both? even higher. How are we expected to break this dence with strenth 16 bombard usints, and strength 24 attack units? Even several armies of modern armor would have a hell of a time.

Now I know they made it easy to edit, and I have... but this issue of the first half is why is the game as it is? Here are my changes:

Catapult: 6 bombard Cannon: 10 bombard. Artiallary: 16 bombard. Radar Arty: 20 bombard, 3 moves (they have tracks and light armor, move as fast as modern tanks and toying with the idea of making them more expensive and 24 bombard)

Rifleman: A/D 5/6 Infanty: 8/10 Marines: 10/8 cost: 90 Paratroopers: 9/9 cost: 90 Guerillas: 8/6 cost: 80

Frigrates A/D/B (RoF is all the same) 4/4/4 Ironclads 6/6/6 Destroyers 14/12/12 6 moves Ageis Crusers 14/14/12 Battleship 22/20/18 (made them more expenssive, 240 sheilds) Sub 12/6 4 moves Nuklear sub 14/8 5 moves.

All planes get an extra 2 range, as did missles. all bombards were raised, RoF was unchanged. bombers: 16 Stealth Bombers: 20 Stealth Fighters: 12 Fighters: 10 Jet Fighters: 12

Tanks A/D/M 16/10/3, Modern Armor: 26/16/4 Mech Infantry: 12/18/3

Feel free to say if you think anythings unbalanced. Basically I tried to make things a bit more even for attackers in the industial and modern age. Mainly raised the seigeing power to weaken cities defended by infantry and mech infantry.

Also, if anyone can point me to a really well made mod of units, id appreciate it.

	05-07-2003 08:37									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

While I agree with your assesment of the units, it is not a problem.
Never use Marines or paratroopers. Guerilas only use as left over warriors from way back. They sit some where out of the way.
Attacking metros with MI is another thing altogether.
It can be a real nightmare. Lots of arties, MA armies are my method. Bombers if they are in range, but they suck.
All in all it is just part of the game, no big deal.
I would not recall CivII as any panacea for units balance.
At least in Civ III you can take down a city. If you had three good units in a city in Civ2, that city was safe from the AI. Was the Spy unit balanced? Take cities for small amount of cash if they were caught in a poor government.
Yeah it could be better, but it is not all that easy to make changes and ensure the AI can deal with them and nothing else breaks.

	05-07-2003 08:47									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

well thts what im saying... there shouldnt be units that ae so crappy you just dont use them... ive tried to make marines etc useable. Ive tried to make the bombard units really useable. yes the spy unit in civ 3 was lame, but I think defence vs offence in civ 2 was more even... meaning, if u gave civ 2 civ 3's AI, I think it would be more balanced on the battelfield, due to how the units worked. I dont think cities should have such a vicious defence as they do in civ3, though they should have some advantage, their aadvnatage shouldnt be quite as strong as it is. Most battles should be fought in the field, field army vs field army. Once the enmy is at the cities gates and the field army crushed, that city only has a matter of time.

	05-07-2003 08:51									#4
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I don't know the rationale the game designers used. I'd suggest modding units to a believable/useful level. IMHO, I think that is better than never using marines or paratroopers. Every unit in the game can be useful. But again that's my Humble Opinion.

	05-07-2003 09:12									#5
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I agree with you on your points VetteroX. But I also have the same opinion of vmxa1 regarding it being no big deal to me. I just use the game more as it was originally designed so that the AI doesn't become too off balance with trying to figure out how to use the units I changed. I used to do a lot of heavy modding of units (including many of the same changes you made), but I don't anymore. The AU mod is about the only one I use now.

	05-07-2003 16:24									#6
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

It is pretty easy to mod the game beyond the point the AI can cope with (that is one reason why bombardment units are relatively weak - to not help the human player) but then where is the challenge? Better to make smaller changes and retain a balance.

Incidentally, marines can be useful, they just need a lot of bombardment support. Also, cities can be hard to take in the modern era - Stalingrad, Leningrad, Berlin, Hue, Phnom Penh, etc.

	05-07-2003 22:38									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

i've often shared the same view as yours (the original author) and am glad that you put it in more "concrete" terms. i always play edited games something along the lines of your corrections.

	05-07-2003 23:45									#8
	Increase Your PM Length

Since the OP asked for a unit mod, I'd suggest the Apolyton University mod. Doesn't add any new units, but tweaks the existing ones. (Actually, it makes a lot of the changes you suggest-- strengthening the offensive abilities of Marines, Infantry, and Paratroopers, increasing the move rate of Radar Artillery, etc.)

	06-07-2003 00:09									#9
	Inflate your Upload Space

Mod the Guerilla to have Hidden Nationality and that unit can become a real nightmare. The AI seems to use it quite effectively.

	06-07-2003 01:16									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

"Mod the Guerilla to have Hidden Nationality and that unit can become a real nightmare. The AI seems to use it quite effectively."

my personal favorite. the AI learns rather quickly that it can attack/take over cities/etc. without dire consequences. i also up them to 8/8/1. (i love the "treat all terrain as roads" for the guerilla too)

	06-07-2003 03:47									#11
	Increase Your PM Length

Hi!

Yeah! And whatever happened to the Civ 2 style attack choppers, you can't mod that in. Speaking of choppers, what about them only dropping troops off and not being able to rescue them. Isn't that what Helicopters are for.

	06-07-2003 04:02									#12
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Kaos XIII Hi! Yeah! And whatever happened to the Civ 2 style attack choppers, you can't mod that in. Speaking of choppers, what about them only dropping troops off and not being able to rescue them. Isn't that what Helicopters are for.

hi ,

" and not being able to rescue them " , well huh , in todays world troops are loaded on and off heli's , .....

have a nice day