05-07-2003 17:21									#1
	Strategic advice for mmiddle ages war? Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Hi all. I'm playing a regent game (standard, 60% continents, temperate/normal) as the Aztecs (random selection). My initial neighbors were the Iriquois and Americans. I've been trying to improve my warmongering (always a peacenik in Civ 2 'til I had overwhelming tech advantage, but that's not really war then), and am trying to incorporate rushes, oscillataing war, and vassal/client setups.

So I gave the Iriquois a JW beatdown 'til they cried uncle (blowing my GA in the process). Got a tech and some gold, pushing them back to marginal land, then turned my eyes to Abe. Now, I wanted the Iriquois lands cause it looked like a nice FP site (the continent is dumbell shaped with an eastern arm where the Americans lived), they had fur, which would give me 3 lux. if I took it, probably leaving them in the dead category (they didn't have much more to offer). I was "playing fair", by waiting 20 turns to redeclare war, so I gave Hiawatha some time, and kindly asked uncle Abe to teach me writing, or else. He refused, so I mass upgraded fifteen regular Jags to swordsmen, and came over for a visit. In the end, the oscillating war left both of my neighbors dead, after I'd squeezed everything out of them. In hindsight, I should have left America alive to be a punching bag, as their land had nothing I wanted (gems, which I already had), the border would have been easily defensible (a three tile chokepoint including a mountain and a hill), and I was maintaining my rep with gentlemanly war declarations. But I didn't. Then came the vikings. They built right on the ashes of the two farthest American towns that had been autorazed (hmm, maybe there's something good there after all). Did some trading, met the rest of the gang (Japan, Persia, France, and Spain). And then Spain plops down on the northern edge of my jungle. Fine. I can deal with that. But then the Vikings start getting a little testy. They want exorbitant amounts of money for tech, and their presence on MY continent was getting on my nerves. I waited for our gpt. deal to expire, and decided it was time to "renegotiate" peace. I took one of the towns they settled, and razed the other. They got Japan in an alliance against me. Then Persia. Then France, and now, Spain. Hmm. I've already been smacking the Vikings. I moved to an island off the coast, then along come Vikings and French. I kill their settlers, and they send more! Nobobody is willing to make peace unless I give them gold, tech, or both. I can understand this for Japan and Persia, who I haven't touched yet, but I've already razed one of the spanish towns on my northern coast. I want everything to settle down for a while so I can build up my empire (I built the GL by hand, built my FP in Salamanca with my other GL from the Viking battles). I have a palace prebuild that will probably be Sun Tzu's or Sistine (not sure which, probably Sistine as I already have barracks everywhere and they're cheap). Most of all, I fear the Japanese. We're all just into the middle ages, and I realized: Samurai. The Japanese are all alone (mostly) on a big island to my north. They're the second largest power after me. My military advisor says we have an average army compared to them, and I'm just cranking up horse production for a mass knight upgrade. How would people deal with this type of scenario?

	05-07-2003 17:30									#2
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Oops, the save didn't attach.

Attachment: middle age- aztecs, 490 ad.zip
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).

	05-07-2003 20:30									#3
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The Vikings beat you to it... diplomacy.

Take advantage of your tech lead and lux resources. Make nice with everyone, and the next time you get into a war, sign as many MAs as you can.

	05-07-2003 21:12									#4
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Here I go parroting Theseus again.

He's right. Good diplomacy will keep you out of that trouble. I will sometimes get several civs to ally with me simply to keep them from allying against me. I often don't care if they do any damage to the civ I'm at war with, as long as they're not keeping me occupied instead of shooting for my main objective.

Keep in mind though that it doesn't always work. Some civs are allies of the civ you are attacking (especially when MPP's come about) and won't go to war no matter what you offer.

	05-07-2003 22:24									#5
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Yeah, I forgot to mention that I tried, but the price they demanded seemed to be too much ( I don't think I was able to trade any lux. with anyone, as that would have been a definite, considering how much I have to spare).

I'm not too worried about the current situation, as I figure if I take control of that small island, and maybe make a beachead on the viking/spanish/french continent, I can get peace with all three of them (hopefully).

I guess my larger concern is trying to fight the Japanese when I'll be facing samurai with knights. I have to knock them down a peg or three, as they seem a little too powerful right now. Maybe I should wait until military tradition to slug it out with them?

In any case, thanks for the advice. At what price do you guys value an alliance with potential interlopers? Anything just to avoid a multi-front war? Or is it completely situational? My experience with alliances is pretty much non-existent, as I've generally been able to stay out of wars when they could be important. The AI seems to break them all the time when they're made amongst themselves. Maybe the terms they give make it easy (ie. no gpt. to each other, so their's nothing lost by reneging)?

Thanks again!

	05-07-2003 23:49									#6
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quote: Originally posted by manicman In any case, thanks for the advice. At what price do you guys value an alliance with potential interlopers? Anything just to avoid a multi-front war? Or is it completely situational? My experience with alliances is pretty much non-existent, as I've generally been able to stay out of wars when they could be important. The AI seems to break them all the time when they're made amongst themselves. Maybe the terms they give make it easy (ie. no gpt. to each other, so their's nothing lost by reneging)?

I usually only value the alliances with civs that are on my continent. If I can keep them from attacking me while I'm exterminating others then I'm happy. The AI isn't too great at landing units on my territory so it's a safe bet that you'll be fairly safe from overseas civs. I keep some fast attackers around for just such a thing as sweeping any AI landings away.

	06-07-2003 05:14									#7
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Getting allies is situational. If they are on the same land mass as me or can reach me then I am interested in having them not fight me. If they are near the main enemy I want them on my side as they may be forced to fight, especially if the enemy has to send troops through their land.
Now as to what I will pay. I prefer to give some thing of no value to me. This could be a tech that is back a ways and known to others. It could be a tech I feel is not harmful (Printing Press). A lux or resources that I have extra of for the time. Last is cash as this can be used to hurt me and I may need it. If I have to give serious money, I will have to be convinced I need to do it.
The amount is not important as the relative amount. IOW 500 means nothing if I have 8,000. It means a lot if I have 600.

	06-07-2003 05:55									#8
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Thanks VMX. I kinda figured that might be how it was. Everybody basically wanted Republic (the only tech lead I have now) and all my cash . I just couldn't do it.

As far as future war planning, how would you proceed? Do I go for the Japanese before they get too powerful (and have to go knight on samurai)? Or do I go after the weaker powers all concentrated on one landmass? I feel like I should go after the Japanese next to trim them back some before they become too large of a threat to handle expeditiously. Maybe grab a few of their core cities, hold off the counterattack, then sue for peace. Then I can consolidate and just defend while I turn my attentions to my other "neighbors".

Thanks again, everyone, for the helpful advice!

	06-07-2003 08:02									#9
	Remove this text

Well I downloaded the zip you posted and it is empty. It shows 179k (not sure why it needed to be zipped).
What was it zipped with? Is it PTW or Civ?

	06-07-2003 22:22									#10
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Let me try again (I zipped it out of habit). It's PTW:





This is the actual save:

Attachment: middle age- aztecs, 490 ad.sav
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).

Last edited by manicman on 06-07-2003 at 22:31

	07-07-2003 04:42									#11
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It looks like your at taking steps to get more workers and that is good as you have so few mines in place. With 29 cities and 26 workers that is not a good ratio.
Avoid workers making roads on mountains if you do not need a road there yet as it takes more time and you have unroaded worked tiles.
I am sorrY I forgot to check on the form of government you are using, but as a non religous civ I like to beeline for Republic and never switch again.
So you are at war will all civs, which is not useful as you can not attack them all at the same time. I would clear off the three cities on my land masses and make peace with those civs and any others I could not attack right then.
Pick either Japan or the French to continue fighting with.
If in republic, I want to take a breather to prevent WW and get some one to declare on me.
I like the idea of Japan, but it can not be to much later or they will have Chivalry. If you miss that window I would leave them alone until I have Calvs. The French look better then as they have more luxs.
Getting some markets will help with happiness at that time. I would reconsider making barracks in some of those smaller cities at this time.
Bottom line is you are in good shape, but need to generate more shields in most cities and that is holding down your research.

	08-07-2003 02:31									#12
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Thanks VMX. I was in Republic, and after I posted that save file, promptly made peace with Japan. They were sending a non-stop stream of galleys to my northern shore. I cleared the Vikings off my continent (and that small island), made peace, and started trading with them. I made peace with the Persians for a small lump sum (20 I think). About to smack the last Spanish city on my continent. At the point I made peace with the Japanese, I started a mass market building spree. The worker situation was starting to slide, as I was spending too much time pumping out units to try to keep up with the Japanese fleet. I may have been roading a mountain to have quick access for a fortified unit, or I might have bumped them there by accident (butterfingers ).

You're right about the Japanese and Chivalry, which was my biggest concern. I think I'm going to have to stay pretty tight with them, and focus on the weaker powers, until I can strike one hard blow and try to cripple their production. The one possible strategic advantage I can see is they only have one source of iron. If I really need to deal with them when they have samurai going, I could potentially drive in, sit on their source of iron, and just try to hold off the counter attack (and make sure none of the other AI sell it to them).

Thanks again!

	08-07-2003 03:07									#13
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Sounds good to me.