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DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:29
  Old Post 06-07-2003 04:12
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Concern as Britons face US tribunal Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote:
The Foreign Office last night expressed serious concern about Washington's decision to put two Britons held as suspected terrorists in Guantanamo Bay before a secretive military tribunal which has the power to order executions.

President Bush's decision to "designate" six inmates of the maximum security Camp Delta - including the Britons, an Australian, and three others - to face the military hearings sparked worldwide condemnation, and lawyers accused the US of devising a process that was loaded towards ensuring guilty verdicts.

Feroz Abbasi, 23, from Croydon, south London, and Moazzam Begg, 35, from Aparkbrook, Birmingham, have been held for 18 months without charge or access to a lawyer. Asked about the possibility of the death penalty, the father of Moazzam, Azmat Begg, said: "It's a disaster for the family."

Britain has "strong reservations" about the US plans for the military commission, where US military officers - the judge and jury - will sit in judgment on charges brought by their government. The defence and prosecution lawyers will also be US military officers.

The Foreign Office minister, Lady Symons, said: "We would want to ensure that there is a separation between government on one hand and the judiciary on the other. It is now up to us to have a very vigorous discussion with the US about securing a fair trial for the individuals involved."

A British source said that although no charges had been yet indicated, they were expected to be insufficiently serious to qualify for the death penalty. "It appears very unlikely that any of the two British detainees would face the death penalty," a British official said.

The proceedings will be held mainly in secret, although the Pentagon plans to hold some sections in public to assuage human rights concerns.

Britain is in an embarrassing diplomatic position. It does not seek a public row with the US, its closest ally, but also knows the men's families will campaign vigorously against the decision to subject the Britons to military tribunals.

The Guardian has learned of concerns about the mental health of both British men. In his last meeting with British officials in April, Mr Abbasi said nothing for an hour, and Mr Begg in a recent letter to his wife wrote that he would take a decision that would affect the entire family. "He said anything just in the hope of getting out of there," said his father.

Stephen Jakobi, director of the British pressure group Fair Trials Abroad, said the tribunals were being "fixed" to secure convictions. Louise Christian, solicitor for Feroz Abbasi, said his mother, Zumrati Juma, was "very, very distressed and very despondent and believes the British government has let her down".

There are nine Britons are among the 680 men from 42 countries held at Camp Delta. They were seized after the US attack on Afghanistan and branded "the hardest of the hard" by the US. They are held in cells eight feet by six feet eight inches, locked up for no less than 23 and a half hours a day, and bound hand and foot when out of their cell.

The regime and conditions, including lights being left on outside the inmates' cells at night, have been condemned by international human rights groups and there have been 28 suicide attempts.

Antonella Notari, spokeswoman for the International Committee of the Red Cross, said the hearings would need a presumption of innocence, defendants having adequate time and counsel to prepare their case, and the exclusion of any evidence gained through torture or through cruel or degrading treatment.

Neil Durkin, of Amnesty International, said: "This development is worrying in the extreme.

"We have been at pains for the past 18 months to point out that all circumstances in Guantanamo Bay flout international standards."
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/foreignaffairs/story/0,11538,992075,00.html

First you complain when we hold people without trial and now you complain when we are finally starting to put them on trial. Make up your minds people!

Dauphin is offline Dauphin
Emperor
Caught in a tuna net
Jan 1970
time: 05:29
  Old Post 06-07-2003 04:16
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Re: Concern as Britons face US tribunal Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc

First you complain when we hold people without trial and now you complain when we are finally starting to put them on trial. Make up your minds people!


The word fair really needs to be used in that sentence somewhere.

The Templar is offline The Templar
Prince
People's Republic of the East Village
Oct 2001
time: 00:29
  Old Post 06-07-2003 04:18
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Inflate your Upload Space

It's not really a trial is it? It's conducted in secret without impartial decision makers, and questions of procedural fairness remain.

If there is to be a trial, give them a real trial, out in the open. Let's see any evidence, and let's see if a reasonable verdict is rendered.

Moreover, I think no state bar should allow anyone who participates in a secret trial to keep their law licence (or obtain one later).

Uncle Sparky is offline Uncle Sparky
King
Winnipeg
Jan 1970
time: 23:29
  Old Post 06-07-2003 04:19
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Oh you joker you !

Will they be executed before or after their fair trials ?

DRoseDARs is offline DRoseDARs

Prince
"My god, it's full of peas..."
Jul 2002
time: 21:29
  Old Post 06-07-2003 04:21
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The military has its own seperate law schools from the public's. State Bar won't help. Pleading for reason won't help. Threatening sanctions that the "allies" can adhere to against the Bush Administration...might.

Just a thought.

The Templar is offline The Templar
Prince
People's Republic of the East Village
Oct 2001
time: 00:29
  Old Post 06-07-2003 04:24
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Got spare money?

quote:
Originally posted by DRoseDARs
The military has its own seperate law schools from the public's. State Bar won't help. Pleading for reason won't help. Threatening sanctions that the "allies" can adhere to against the Bush Administration...might.

Just a thought.


It would end the career of any JAG lawyer that participated. Moreover, it would discourage non-military lawyers from getting involved in any way with the trials. Such would help disrupt any hopes of these sham trials looking at all respectable.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:29
  Old Post 06-07-2003 04:30
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These people were caught in a war on foreign soil. There is no evidence that Taliban was directly involved in any attacks on the US. Thus, there is NO court that can try them except military tribunals or military courts. If you don't want them subject to tribunals, that's fine. They just won't have a trial at all then! I'm sure you'd prefer that, right?

Last edited by Imran Siddiqui on 06-07-2003 at 04:36

MichaeltheGreat is offline MichaeltheGreat
Apolyton Grand Executioner
mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:29
  Old Post 06-07-2003 04:31
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Got spare money?

State bar associations wouldn't particularly care for politicization of their admissions requirements. In fact, if you have a "secret" tribunal, you don't even have a way of verifying participation.

These "tribunals" are complete horseshit. There's absolutely no good reason why trials can't be held under the UCMJ and MCM.

DRoseDARs is offline DRoseDARs

Prince
"My god, it's full of peas..."
Jul 2002
time: 21:29
  Old Post 06-07-2003 04:33
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I didn't realize...anyone thought they looked respectable in the first place.

Anyway, I'd given up having anything more than apathetic feelings about the tribunal issue. There's very little anyone on the outside can do about them. Besides feel helpless to stop them.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:29
  Old Post 06-07-2003 04:36
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Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote:
Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
There's absolutely no good reason why trials can't be held under the UCMJ and MCM.
Well yeah. I'm just having a bit of fun at the moment.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:29
  Old Post 06-07-2003 04:38
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Put an end to popups!

The lefty's would still complain it isn't a 'real' court though .

Cruddy is offline Cruddy
Warlord

Mar 2003
time: 05:29
  Old Post 06-07-2003 07:54 Visit Cruddy's homepage!
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I think the US admin is making a mistake here. It sets a dangerous precedent for future conlflicts, where US citizens could be caught up in war zones. It just seems the US govt is playing the totality systems at their own game.

I wait to see what the charges are before totally condemning these tribunals... but I can't help feeling Bush isn't just out on a limb, he's seriously out of the tree entirely on this issue.

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