08-07-2003 05:34									#31
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And why is it that American cars have a reputation for being total crap, if they're exceptional in quality?

	08-07-2003 05:49									#32
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Because from 1960-1985(ish), American cars were crap. A 25 year rap is pretty hard to break.

	08-07-2003 05:50									#33
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Japanese cars were crap back then too, especially in the 60s and 70s.

	08-07-2003 05:56									#34
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Naw, Japanese cars were better than American cars quality-wise by 1968 at the latest. In 1960, Nissan (then Datsun) won the Deming award for quality... but it must be admitted that the American's didn't even know he was giving an award.

	08-07-2003 05:57									#35
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I had a chevy S-10 for ten years and put 150,000 + miles on it with only one problem the whole time. I still have the old girl back home but decided to bring my car up here.

One ***** I do have was with the piss poor paint job that Chevy did on the 92 model. A few years after I bought it the paint started pealing until the whole top of the hood was almost bare. I took it the dealer and he had to repaint it.


Backing up Oerdin's statement about going to junkyards. There are all kinds of things you can pick up for cheap. Don't be afraid to go out there and look around.

	08-07-2003 11:01									#36
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I beat up my bimmer pretty bad a couple of weeks ago, and apparently insurance expired in February .

Total bill was 6300 US$...

Trying to decide whether to stick with this beamer, buy another or buy some other make.

	08-07-2003 23:27									#37
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Hahaha! Read'em and weep.

http://money.cnn.com/2003/07/08/pf/....reut/index.htm

This is J.D. Power's lastest study in Long Term Reliability. The results for the top ten brands in long term reliability are 5 Japanese, 4 American, and 1 European brand. It looks like we should be talking about how crappy Euro cars are instead of American cars.

	08-07-2003 23:30									#38
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Lexus 163
Infiniti 174
Buick 179
Porsche 193
Acura 196
Toyota 201
Cadillac 209
Lincoln 212
Honda 218
Mercury 240

Notice how there is no BMW, no M-B, no VW, no Volvo, no Saab, no Land Rover, no Jaguar, etc..? If fact not a single mass volume European manufacturer made it onto the list just Porche which has a very narrow focus and a very small product line up.

	08-07-2003 23:44									#39
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I'm unsure how they tested, did they actually test all those brands or just those 10? Why wouldn't they release all the figures, rather than 10?

And I also find it really suspicious how Buick is #3 and Honda #9...just not kosher.

	08-07-2003 23:57									#40
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They've been testing every make and model of car on sale in the US and Canada. Follow the link and you'll see they've released the numbers for all brands, but, if you want the info on individual models then you have to pay them.

Face the facts Asher. You were wrong and American cars are better designed and better put together then you've given them credit for.

Last edited by Oerdin on 09-07-2003 at 00:20

	08-07-2003 23:58									#41
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Rule no.1: Only the Axis powers of WW2 know how to make cars.

	09-07-2003 00:01									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin They've been testing every make and model of car on sale in the US and Canada. Face the facts Asher. You were wrong and American cars are better designed and better put together then you've given them credit for.

I don't buy the JD Power & Associates figures.

For one, they're incomplete -- where are the rest of the makers? What are the criteria and what exactly do the numbers mean? Why does anecdotal evidence totally fly in the face of it? Why is there such a huge gap between Lexus and Toyota seeing as Lexus is rebranded Toyota cars?

	09-07-2003 00:05									#43
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Charts like this seem more realistic to me:

	09-07-2003 00:05									#44
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Did you read the article asher? it would answer a few of your questions.

	09-07-2003 00:16									#45
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So what's the deal with two lists?

J.D. Power long-term quality survey
Problems per 100 vehicles

Manufacturer Score
Porsche 193
Toyota 196
Honda 215
Nissan 258
BMW 262
General Motors 264
Subaru 266
Average 273
Ford 287
DaimlerChrysler 311
Mitsubishi 339
Hyundai 342
Isuzu 368
Volkswagen 378
Suzuki 403
Daewoo 421
Kia 509

That list seems slightly more believable to me, but why is it so different than the Top 10 Brands one?

	09-07-2003 00:19									#46
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Asher, can you please cite your sources, especially the graph and the second list?

Thanks.

Edit: 2nd list came from Oerdin's article. My bad.

	09-07-2003 00:22									#47
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autoinfo.com is the source for the graph and chart.

	09-07-2003 00:25									#48
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Asher the difference between the two lists is simple. One list is the rate for a given manufacturer and the other is for individual brands. Thus GM's figures include all 10 brands it sells, Toyota's includes their 3 brands, and so forth. It's a company wide average which is less realistic because a brand like Caddy or Linclon has next to nothing to due with a Chevy Chavilier so it's better to break it down by brand instead of by holding company.

	09-07-2003 00:27									#49
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If you look at the two charts (the one I provided (1998 cars) and the one that Oerdin (2001 cars) provided), the industry average for defects (problems per 100 vehicles) has declined from 355 to 273.

Asher, the reason why some makes don't show up is that the chart from Oerdin's article shows the PP100 for the corporation as a whole, while the article (and my chart) goes into divisional detail. The article claims that Lexus had 163 pp100, but the Toyota Corporation as a whole averaged 196 pp100.

Confusing as all hell, and again proof that AOL-Time Warner doesn't really care about the quality of their information.

Last edited by JohnT on 09-07-2003 at 00:37

	09-07-2003 00:28									#50
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I think it says a lot for the quality of American manufacturers when only one is above average, and even then ever-so-slightly.

I think that alone would prove that American vehicles are still not of high quality compared to Toyota & Honda.

And 3 years old isn't long term IMO, I believe 4+ is longterm and I believe that's when I also said American cars tend to start to fall apart.

See my chart about 5-year old cars.

	09-07-2003 00:35									#51
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I think it says more for global manufacturing processes to realize just how far automobiles have come in quality, regardless of brand/nation, in the last 20 years.

Didja notice that Buick improved their cars by 100 pp100vehicles over the past 3 years, while Lexus had their problems increase over that time period?

And calling a Lexus a "rebranded Toyota" is, well, dumb. Many of the parts and processes are the same, but even by Toyota standards, the difference between Lexus and the other brands are quite amazing. Actually, it's the other way around: the charts indicate that Toyota is using the lessons learned in manufacturing the Lexus and applying it to their cheaper cars:

PP100v

Model - 1998my - 2001my

Lexus - 159 - 169
Toyota - 276 - 201

	09-07-2003 00:38									#52
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Lexus is a rebranded Toyota with higher end components with more extensive QA.

The engines are identical to Toyota vehicles for the most part.

The Lexus RX330 and Toyota Highlander V6 have the exact same engine, for example.

	09-07-2003 00:41									#53
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god this is fasinating :/

anyway, can't you do the work yourself? a fuel injector pump isn't that difficult to replace and ecu more so, but it only took me so long because i didn't really know what i was doing. no idea about the emisions control thing though, never had to work on one of those.

and definatly go to breakers yards for things like an ecu and injector pumps, you're in a city, there's bound to be tons of breakers yards around.

	09-07-2003 00:43									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I think it says a lot for the quality of American manufacturers when only one is above average, and even then ever-so-slightly.

Think about it for a bit. GM sells lots and lots of low end vehicles like the Pontaic Sunfire (or did in 2000 anyway) which were sold for about $8,000 new. How many low end BMWs are out there? The more expensive car is almost always going to have a more expensive, yet more reliable, design. Thus the GM, DC, and Ford corporation ratings are going to have lots more vehicles from all the price ranges and so there corporation ratings are likely to be lower then BMWs.

Is that what the customer really wants to know though? No, he want to know how reliable a buick or a Mercury is not what the amalgamated satistical rating for all 20 brands a company might own. Thus the sats for each brand is the real information.

	09-07-2003 00:45									#55
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But the stats for each brand don't tell you anything about the manufacturer's capability.

We were talking about American cars vs Japanese cars, so I fail to see why it's not proper to look at the entire companies? GM vs Toyota vs Honda, etc.

If GM makes crap cars, they make crap cars -- you shouldn't excuse it by saying "look how cheap it is!". The Toyota Echo is dirt cheap too, but reliable as hell.

	09-07-2003 00:49									#56
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I believe I could do it myself, but it would probably take some time... time I don't have, as I am just back from vacation and am way behind on my chatting here at poly... uh, I mean I am way behind at work, yeah, that's it...

I looked at the ECU instillation packages, and I think it would take me a couple of days to do... I would rather not do that.

Anyway, I am renting a chevy cavilier while the A-holes arsefuk me... the car is peice of sh!t, but at least it runs...

As soon as it is done I am going to take to another mechanic and get a tune-up and have them inspect the dealer's work... Make sure they didn't insure my return buisness.

	09-07-2003 00:49									#57
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There are far more qualitative differences between a Lexus-Toyota then there are between, say, the Dodge Stratus and Plymouth reliant. If the components are not the same as in their cheaper cars (as you yourself admit), then calling a Lexus a rebranded Toyota is a misnomer at best.

And the fact that they use the same engine doesn't make it the same car. Given that the engine is one of the most difficult and expensive design issues facing new cars, using an old workhorse across makes and models is very common.

	09-07-2003 00:50									#58
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Some brands cost more and thus can buy more expensive parts and spend more on Q & A. It would be entirely artificial to try to break it down by holding company instead of each individual make.

Are we going to tell how good a furniture maker BerkshireHathoway is buy averaging all of there businesses they own or are we going to look at Thomasvilles furniture business? Sure the holding company owns the stock in Thomasville but in the end we should be looking at the quality of the brand (in this case Thomasville) which puts out the end product.

	09-07-2003 00:54									#59
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT And the fact that they use the same engine doesn't make it the same car. Given that the engine is one of the most difficult and expensive design issues facing new cars, using an old workhorse across makes and models is very common.

They have the same chasis, the same engine, and the same system electronics. The Lexus adds things like a rear camera, nicer trim, LCD panel, etc.

The engine is the thing far most likely to affect reliability, so when they're the same across Lexus and Toyota, I think it's fair to call it rebranding. They slightly modify the exterior design to look "different enough", add some trendy things like a reverse camera and LCD display, and double the price.

	09-07-2003 00:56									#60
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Another thing not taken into account by JD Powers & Associates is maintenance:

People who buy Lexus' are probably far more likely to make sure their vehicle gets its scheduled maintenance than someone who buys a Kia. Regular maintenance = less problems.