08-07-2003 07:10									#31
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious You have to be poor to be made poorer. Poor is a relative term. There is no way that you can tax the rich and make them poor unless you taxed them so much that they had less money than those who used to be poor. Oh, and you guys are the ones who think backward.

exactly, poor is a relative term. u can never make the poor not poor. if we didnt tax them and gave them all cars they'd still be poor! cuz poverty level is not absolute.

	08-07-2003 07:11									#32
	Remove this text

poor are poor because they are uncapable of being rich.

	08-07-2003 07:11									#33
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious You have to be poor to be made poorer.

Um. Not really.

If somebody finds $2 on the ground, they say they're "$2 richer"...doesn't mean they're rich.

	08-07-2003 07:11									#34
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by yavoon exactly, poor is a relative term. u can never make the poor not poor. if we didnt tax them and gave them all cars they'd still be poor! cuz poverty level is not absolute.

Well, you could level out income distribution. Then there would be no poor (or rich, or middle class for that manner).

	08-07-2003 07:13									#35
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by The Templar Well, you could level out income distribution. Then there would be no poor (or rich, or middle class for that manner).

yes but thats extreme socialism. really really extreme even by today's standards. and then u run into another problem, why work hard? why not just get a job, ne job. I mean ****. the % of ppl willing to work hard w/o u paying them is very damn small.

	08-07-2003 07:14									#36
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Well, you could level out income distribution

sure, and we could all get government regulated rations... live in "efficient" government housing.... etc... no thanks... capitalism gave me my TV, my computer, my video games, my car, my house, etc...

what we need is equal opprotunity... not some authoritarian distribution of wealth.

	08-07-2003 07:16									#37
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Did LBJ's war on poverty decrease poverty?

Maybe not, but it did eliminate much suffering and death caused by poverty in this country. People recieved a means to survival when they had none previously. The resources devoted are not sufficient to reduce poverty. If anything they actually increased it, because more poor are able to survive.

	08-07-2003 07:18									#38
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by yavoon yes but thats extreme socialism. really really extreme even by today's standards. and then u run into another problem, why work hard? why not just get a job, ne job. I mean ****. the % of ppl willing to work hard w/o u paying them is very damn small.

Give people jobs they like. Do something like participant planning. If you think only money motivates people you have far too narrow a conception of humanity. Only economists think that narrowly.

	08-07-2003 07:18									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Dissident poor are poor because they are uncapable of being rich.

There you go then. So why should we tax them? They aren't responsible for there status.

	08-07-2003 07:19									#40
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

because everyone should contribute in society, that's why

	08-07-2003 07:20									#41
	Got spare money?

and everyone should have a roof over their heads and a meal in their bellies...

	08-07-2003 07:20									#42
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by The Templar Give people jobs they like. Do something like participant planning. If you think only money motivates people you have far too narrow a conception of humanity. Only economists think that narrowly.

I don't think only money motivates people. but if ur under some dellusion that u can stand toe to toe w/ a capitalist society. then ur mistaken. they will dominate u unless u simply shut off ur borders.

	08-07-2003 07:20									#43
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Sava sure, and we could all get government regulated rations... live in "efficient" government housing.... etc... no thanks... capitalism gave me my TV, my computer, my video games, my car, my house, etc... what we need is equal opprotunity... not some authoritarian distribution of wealth.

Actually, capitalism kept the TV off the market for decades. (RCA held back development and infrastructure until the inventor's patent ran out).

The point was, however, to stimulate yavoon's limited imagination.

	08-07-2003 07:20									#44
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Sava what we need is equal opprotunity

Even if that were possible, and it's not, would you then tax the poor?

	08-07-2003 07:22									#45
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Even if that were possible, and it's not, would you then tax the poor?

not only is it not possible its unconstitutional. cuz in theory to allow it u would have to restrict how those who do have money spend it.

that being said u could close the gap so that spending extra money became inefficient.

	08-07-2003 07:23									#46
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Dissident because everyone should contribute in society, that's why

There's that word 'should.' People should do a lot of things, maybe help others too. Well, what does 'should' have to do with reality. Reality it that the poor suffer and you propose increasing their suffering.

	08-07-2003 07:23									#47
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: cuz in theory to allow it u would have to restrict how those who do have money spend it.

What do you think taxes do?

	08-07-2003 07:23									#48
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious There's that word 'should.' People should do a lot of things, maybe help others too. Well, what does 'should' have to do with reality. Reality it that the poor suffer and you propose increasing their suffering.

Oh, I like this game!
Reality is the poor pay taxes. I win!!! Awesome.

	08-07-2003 07:24									#49
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Asher What do you think taxes do?

u mean tax incentives or taxes? just taxes restrict how much u have. tax incentives try to coerce u into spending it in a gov't approved way.

	08-07-2003 07:24									#50
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by yavoon u mean tax incentives or taxes? just taxes restrict how much u have. tax incentives try to coerce u into spending it in a gov't approved way.

Taxes take your money to control how it's spent, ie. how the government wants it spent.

	08-07-2003 07:25									#51
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Asher Taxes take your money to control how it's spent, ie. how the government wants it spent.

oh yes I see what u mean. I was talking more about personal expenditures. u r talking about gov't programs.

	08-07-2003 07:27									#52
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Even if that were possible, and it's not, would you then tax the poor?

Perhaps it's possible... but even if it's not, there are lot of improvements that could be made. To answer your question... I would not place any direct taxes on people living in poverty, but they would be subject to other taxes... such as a sales tax on tobacco, marijuana, alcohol, etc... but I believe in progressive taxation.

	08-07-2003 07:33									#53
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Sava I would not place any direct taxes on people living in poverty, but they would be subject to other taxes... such as a sales tax on tobacco, marijuana, alcohol, etc... but I believe in progressive taxation.

Sin taxes don't reduce consumption. In fact the lower your income is the more likely you are to consume self-destructive things. That's why I don't think they are fair. If you eliminate poverty people will take better care of themselves, because they will have more to live for.

	08-07-2003 07:37									#54
	Re: Why do conservatives say poor don't pay taxes? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Dissident Hannity specifically. And Colmes isn't challenging him on it. Is this true? Why is it when I was in the military I had to pay taxes when I made $18,000 a year or less? Am I doing something wrong? Or do I have to have kids to get out of paying taxes. Does anyone know how the tax brackets break down? I'd like to see the tax brackets. If I was paying taxes when I didn't have to, I will be real pissed .

Oh, Lordy, not this one again.

By "not paying taxes", what they mean is that poor families have no income tax bite due to child tax credits, the EITC, etc. This point has been debated and discussed over and over again on this board.

It does not mean that poor people don't pay sales taxes, payroll taxes, etc. etc.

If the debate is about Federal Income Taxes, then Hannity is, by and large, correct.

	08-07-2003 07:40									#55
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Sin taxes don't reduce consumption. In fact the lower your income is the more likely you are to consume self-destructive things. That's why I don't think they are fair. If you eliminate poverty people will take better care of themselves, because they will have more to live for.

I would tax those things to pay for addiction and rehab programs. Poor people aren't the only ones who do drugs you know.

	08-07-2003 07:40									#56
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by The Templar Actually, capitalism kept the TV off the market for decades. (RCA held back development and infrastructure until the inventor's patent ran out).

Cite?

	08-07-2003 07:46									#57
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Sava I would tax those things to pay for addiction and rehab programs.

Rehab won't work for people who only see a life of poverty ahead of them, because it doesn't address the societal problem.

	08-07-2003 07:47									#58
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Rehab won't work for people who only see a life of poverty ahead of them, because it doesn't address the societal problem.

nothing to live for if u cant be rich? I hear ya brother.

	08-07-2003 07:48									#59
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

exactly what are payroll taxes?

My state is raising taxes by almost $1 billion a year (and I live in a very small state), and we are getting payroll taxes.

I'd like to know what they are. Are they like income tax?

	08-07-2003 07:51									#60
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by yavoon nothing to live for if u cant be rich? I hear ya brother.

It's not about that. It's about feeling that you are equal in a society that says that everyone is suppose to be equal but aren't. How do you think that would make you feel? Pretty shitty, huh?