08-07-2003 07:51									#61
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Payroll taxes are taxes that are based upon the size of a business's payroll - essentially, the business is being taxed for the "right" to hire you. Of course, this tax comes out of your paycheck.

Social Security is a payroll tax, just as are unemployment taxes, Medicare, etc.

	08-07-2003 07:54									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious It's not about that. It's about feeling that you are equal in a society that says that everyone is suppose to be equal but aren't. How do you think that would make you feel? Pretty shitty, huh?

I sure hope everyone isnt equal. I imagine radical liberalism are the only people who advocate everyone's equality. I imagine most sane people recognize some people are smarter more talented, luckier, sexier any number of other desirable traits. but they ARE NOT DISTRIBUTED EQUALLY.

that doesn't mean one can discern who has it better or worse. but it sure is easy to tell thatpeople don't have it equal.

	08-07-2003 07:56									#63
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Diss, payroll taxes are the taxes we pay for Social Security.

Kid -

quote: Maybe not, but it did eliminate much suffering and death caused by poverty in this country. People recieved a means to survival when they had none previously.

Do you have statistics showing that more people died because of poverty in 1962 than in 1968 and that the drop resulted from LBJ's war on poverty?

	08-07-2003 07:58									#64
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quote: Rehab won't work for people who only see a life of poverty ahead of them, because it doesn't address the societal problem

apples and oranges... addiction is at the root of substance abuse... they are two seperate, but sometimes related, problems that require seperate solutions.

	08-07-2003 07:58									#65
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quote: the business is being taxed for the "right" to hire you. Of course, this tax comes out of your paycheck.

Yup.

	08-07-2003 07:59									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious So they should be made poorer?

If you don't pay any taxes, why should the government have any obligation to you? Even the poor should have to pay taxes.

	08-07-2003 08:30									#67
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Ohhhh, it looks like it's turning into a debate on my favorite topic....

-=Vel=-

	08-07-2003 08:32									#68
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Hi Vel !

Did you see I agreed with you yesterday ? (in the image of America thread)

	08-07-2003 08:33									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Why do liberals say conservatives say poor don't pay taxes?

Talk to JohnT

	08-07-2003 08:35									#70
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Talk to JohnT

Sez a man who, in a debate about tax policy, actually faked his numbers and processes.

Anyway, I already replied in this thread. Check it out.

	08-07-2003 08:36									#71
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Master Spiff! I read that thread, but did not get a chance to reply yet! (still unpacking, and sneaking up here in-between boxes!). Nonetheless, I was jazzed to be on the same side o' the fence with ya!

-=Vel=-
(who now must return to his patriotic chest thumping and flag waving!--kiddin' Spiff! )

	08-07-2003 08:36									#72
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Did I now. Or was it the guy who invented 3 children where none existed before?

****! If I had 384 children then I wouldn't have to pay taxes...

	08-07-2003 08:39									#73
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Yeah, you did. I have the thread saved to my HD at work... want me to dig it up?

And it wasn't three children... it was three people, one of which was a child. You can't even remember the debate properly.

You know, both Kidicious and Chegitz tried to use fake numbers on me in a thread a month or so ago.... what is it with you types? Have you no ?

	08-07-2003 08:41									#74
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As I recall, I stated that a man earning 15000 a year would pay federal income tax. You claimed he wouldn't and then gave him a family to ensure he wouldn't (after I'd looked up the personal exemption on the IRS website BTW)...

	08-07-2003 08:43									#75
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So where were the fake numbers?

I also posted how much tax was being witheld from my paycheques (admittedly in a different country...but with a comparable tax scheme) when I was being paid near minimum wage on a full time job.

Works out to about 15-20% (federal and provincial taxes included) up here...

	08-07-2003 08:45									#76
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Society doesn't "owe" me anything....at least not any society that I want to live in.

Yes, the poor should pay taxes. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If we're going to have taxes (and we are....sorry DF), then everybody gets to play the game.

Obviously those who have more will pay more. That makes a certain inescapable logical sense (and is the corrnerstone of a "progressive" tax system), but everybody who wants to be a part OF the society should pull their weight, whatever that might be.

This rich-poor argument: Tripe and nonsense. People are NOT equal. And because they are not equal, there WILL BE differences in outcomes, and that's okay. There are some folks who will argue the other side who are (for whatever bizzare reason) utterly convinced that society should pay everyone a wage for being alive, or for being a really nice, cool guy. These people are also convinced that economic worth = self worth.

I'm not buying that either. Economics is a game, and should be treated as such. Some of the wealth generated by the game should be used to create a social safety net (stronger than the one we have now in this country) to help those who: a) aren't very good at the game, b) can't play the game, or c) don't know how, but want to learn to play the game. Note that this social safety net should NOT pay people in perpetuity for being alive, nor should it be simply doled out....it should be structured to promote people to play the game. If you choose NOT to play the game, that's your choice, but then don't whine that the system isn't being fair to you. If you don't want to play the game, have a plan in mind to provide for yourself without doing it. Otherwise, suck it up and play ball.

-=Vel=-

	08-07-2003 08:52									#77
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quote: Society doesn't "owe" me anything....at least not any society that I want to live in

go live in some anarchy in Africa and then tell me if you want to live in a society that has no responsibility to its people.

	08-07-2003 08:54									#78
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And how much time have YOU spent in the aforementioned African anarchy, exactly? Are you typing from a cozy internet cafe there right now?

-=Vel=-

	08-07-2003 08:55									#79
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But I am genuinely curious....what does society "owe" me? What does it "owe" you, and why?

-=Vel=-

	08-07-2003 08:57									#80
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quote: And how much time have YOU spent in the aforementioned African anarchy, exactly? Are you typing from a cozy internet cafe there right now?

But I'm not agreeing with your hypocritical position.

quote: But I am genuinely curious....what does society "owe" me? What does it "owe" you, and why?

"Society" or in my case... America... owes me what it has promised in the Constitution. It's a social contract. Perhaps you should read it, you might learn something about what society "owes" you. Personally... I don't think I'm owed anything. I think society, as defined, has certain responsibilities.

	08-07-2003 09:00									#81
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I've read the constitution. Nowhere in it does it say that society has a debt to me that must be repaid. Our society (in the USA) is structured so that we each have the opportunity to pursue life, liberty, and happiness. That's not a given. It's not an automatic thing, nor a certainty. Hardly something that I am "owed."

-=Vel=-

	08-07-2003 09:02									#82
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I'm not talking about debt, I'm talking about responsibility.

	08-07-2003 09:04									#83
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Responsibility is quite a different thing than being "owed" a thing.

Yes....society has responsibilities. In our particular case, the society at large (created by and maintained by us as individuals) has the responsibility to maintain and uphold that which we have, collectively deemed good and right. But that's not the same thing as "owing" me anything, which was my point.

-=Vel=-

	08-07-2003 09:06									#84
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ah I see... I thought you were arguing about the legitimacy of providing for the welfare of the people.... bu rather, you were referring to the semantical context of owing vs responsibility... gotcha

you have to forgive me, I get confused easily

	08-07-2003 09:08									#85
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Me too, 'specially after midnight...

And yes, I think "owe" is the entirely wrong word.

We can debate till the cows come home about what, precisely our societal responsibilities *should be*, but it's fairly clear what they are now, and as they stand now, society doesn't owe me squat, and I'm okay with that.

-=Vel=-

	08-07-2003 09:14									#86
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what I believe is simple:

1. The United State's responsibilities are layed out in the Consitution and the government in power shall interpret the Consitution. The Constitution is the highest law in the land.

2. Any Democracy has a responsibility to provide it's citizens with the means, possibily by representative, to provide their own interpretation of their respective government's responsibilities.

that's all... my views are dictated by these two philosophies...

	08-07-2003 09:41									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Economics is a game, and should be treated as such. Some of the wealth generated by the game should be used to create a social safety net (stronger than the one we have now in this country) to help those who: a) aren't very good at the game, b) can't play the game, or c) don't know how, but want to learn to play the game. Note that this social safety net should NOT pay people in perpetuity for being alive, nor should it be simply doled out....it should be structured to promote people to play the game. If you choose NOT to play the game, that's your choice, but then don't whine that the system isn't being fair to you. If you don't want to play the game, have a plan in mind to provide for yourself without doing it. Otherwise, suck it up and play ball. -=Vel=-

It's not a game when you are working two **** jobs just to survive. Those who choose to play the game should be able to survive in relative comfort as a threshold. People should be able to actually make trade-offs in values - everything is not about produtivity. People should have time to spend with their kids (and cats).

Get back to me when our society values something other than the almighty dollar.

	08-07-2003 10:19									#88
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well then raise the minimum wage. Case Closed!

then everyone will have enough money. There is no need for excessive taxation. Granted the companies may be forced to lay off workers. This just means we will have to deport some illegal immigrants.

	08-07-2003 10:24									#89
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara If you don't pay any taxes, why should the government have any obligation to you? Even the poor should have to pay taxes.

Che, wow! I'm shocked. How can this be compatable with your beliefs? It seems to me that you are saying that the govts obligation to citizens should be based on the taxes that they pay. I just don't know what to say.

	08-07-2003 10:27									#90
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Kidicious... it's called motivation. Get off your lazy ass and work. You have to work hard in this world to succeed. Sure, every one in a million get's lucky and is born into a rich oil family and becomes president, but 99.99% about America is hard work. And I don't mean manual. It takes hustle, discipline, and a clear concept of responsibility. Sure there are mostly mitigating circumstances, but still. If people become dependent on society, they become slaves to it.