08-07-2003 13:08									#1
	Temp City or Not Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I ran two Sims, using the one set up by Trip. The one probelm his has is that we don't have any gold in the treasury to start and we never get barb camps to appear. But that is not a big deal since I'm only comparing and contrasting if we go with the Temp City or Not. So research is done while never running in the 'red'; whereas if we had a few (4-5) camps to collect from that gold would be turned into beaker's, we'd run at -? gpt in order to speed reaserach if we came across extra gold from barbs.

If we don't, then workers actions are different.

Here's the F11 screens for both runs through the SIM at 510 BC, about the time we expect to dicover The Republic.

In the one without Temp City we are farther ahead in research by long ways than the one with. The accumulation of commerce went faster in the one without the Temp City.

Also you can see that in the one without Temp City the potential for growth is higher due to smaller city populations. And since both have the same shield output at 510 BC, the One that will grow more will produce more after 510 BC.

I invite others to run the SIM that Trip made to see what you can do for Apolyton. It's fun. You just have to make a small report like this. I did do a couple of things differntly from each one, but not anything that would skew the numbers. I built a Temple in Mingapulco to se how it's border expansion would look since there was no Temp City to fill in ther. I also built a Harbor in Incensity. I think we should get CFC to build one as well so we can trade Luxes. This will help our cities at size 6.

I will run some more, but please, will some of you also run some tests? Thanks.

Here are the save files at 510 BC for both:

With Temp City

WithOUT Temp City

BTW, 510 BC is turn 103.

	08-07-2003 13:30									#2
	Re: Temp City or Not Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by BigFree In the one without Temp City we are farther ahead in research by long ways than the one with. The accumulation of commerce went faster in the one without the Temp City.

Could you specify this? What do you mean by "long ways"? How many turns of research is the difference?


By looking at the F11 screens, I see a few interesting points:

• Pop: WITH: 666,000 WITHOUT: 629,000
  How come? Shouldn't establishing the temp city slow us down in pop?
  
• MFG: WITH: 37 WITHOUT: 37
  
• GNP: WITH: 48 WITHOUT: 51
  
• Prod: WITH: 89 WITHOUT: 93
  Not so much of a difference...
  

	08-07-2003 13:35									#3
	Suffering from ads?

BFM, look at the pictures. On the bootom left of the last two it show how far to go to Republic for each one.

With= +1gpt 14 turns to go
Without= +4gpt 6 turns to go

	08-07-2003 13:39									#4
	Tired of ads?

OK. The question is: will the quicker discovery of The Republic make up for the loss in population?

(which reminds me that you haven't answered my first Q yet)

	08-07-2003 13:56									#5
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

The population difference is minute, but will soon ballon for the Sim WITHOUT. The Sim WITH is limited in its growth until more settlers are built and cities settled.

The differnces can be attributed to building more or less worker or settlers in each Sim.

WITHOUT has 11 cities and WITH has 10.

And yes, the discovery of Republic sooner means that we can swith to gold sooner for upgrades sooner. As you can see, the one WITHOUT, has more commerce/science stored during the turns that the one WITH. Even though they have near the same GNP at 510 BC, the one WITHOUT had a higher average GNP than the one WITH. Thus we are closer to Republic on the Sim WITHOUT.

I suggest you run the Sims yourself or at least download the finnished saves at 510 BC to see if there's anymore information for you there.

	08-07-2003 16:25									#6
	Tired of ads?

WITHOUT the Temp City it takes an additional 14 worker turns to get irrigation to Hispanica.

It is clear to me it is not worth the cost of a settler to save those turns. We can build 2 workers (who are cheaper shieldwise by 10) instead who will do more than just those 14 worker turns of providing irrigation to Hispanica. Those 2 workers pay off in the medium and long term over the settler put down for the temp city.

I have run Sims to prove this point.

	08-07-2003 18:40									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by BigFree I have run Sims to prove this point.

Could you perhaps give an explanation as to why this is the case? For people like me who do not run these sims, it is difficult to take the conclusions without a grain of salt. It's not that I do not trust your judgement, but saying "I ran some tests" does not convince me.

Especially in this case: 8-turn difference in research times rings bells for me that there's something wrong with the simulation.

Some specific comments/question:

1. How do the research rates compare when you put the sliders to the same settings (currently one is at 6/4/0, the other at 3/7/0)? Did you remain faithful in keeping this the same across both simulations?

2. Why is Big Bend in different locations between the "With" and "Without" simulations?

3. Did you follow the exact same build queues in both simulations? What about Worker actions?

4. What is the difference between Workers in the simulations? What about other units? Improvements?

5. It looks to me like there are more cleared and improved tiles in the "With" simulation (consider NW of Big Bend). That's an investment which is not accounted for in your report.

6. The temp city produces Workers, which reduces the pop burden on other cities and helps in clearing tiles. Again, this is not accounted for in your report.

7. Clearing and improving one Jungle tile takes 1+12+2+2 = 17 Worker-turns for 1 Worker. This is obviously reduced if more Workers help out, but then you start wasting Worker-turns for each Worker which could better be used somewhere else.

8. General comment about Jungle-clearing: stacking 4 Workers to clear one tile (such as the tile directly NE of Big Bend) is wasteful. I mentioned this just before E_T became MoI. Each city needs non-Jungle tiles to work on, that's for sure. But wasting Worker-turns to clear tiles faster because we're prioritizing Temples(?!) is not the same thing. If the Jungle cities get too big, just pop out a Worker now and then. We'll get the best results if we clear the Jungle in a long, slow, but efficient manner.


Anyway, BigFree, I hope you do not feel like I'm downplaying your effort with this sim. I hope you can understand why I'm a bit reticent to accept its conclusions. I would appreciate it if you could shed some light on what you've found.


Dominae

	08-07-2003 21:03									#8
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Well if BigFree's sims were correctly done I would rather not have a temp city. We need to have Republic fast so we can have a GA and go to war with CDG.

	09-07-2003 00:34									#9
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I agree with Dominae.

An extra 8 turns on such an expensive tech from one Settler is very fishy. Building a Settler in Apolyton should only drop us 2 GPT for 5 turns and then 1 GPT for 5 more. Even if that full 15 gold was "lost," 15 beakers with a 672 beaker tech should not make the tech cost 8 turns more, especially when we'll be making more than 30 per turn soon.

	09-07-2003 00:46									#10
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

And that doesn't even account for the extra commerce from the temp city, which will likely be at least 4 GPT since it will be on a river and working a tile adjacent to a river.

4 GPT over 8 turns nets us more gold than 2 GPT for 5 turns and 1 GPT for 5 more.

I'm very curious as to how you made less gold.

	09-07-2003 03:36									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I posted the final numbers and not the in-between numbers because it is time prohibitive.

You would imagine that worker actions would be different depending on where you put cities, so there's a difference in where I had worker's work in both Sims. I tried my best at both Sims. I gave what I though was a pretty good explanation for the differences.

If you download the saves you can see when each city was settled for each Sim.

As far as my figure of 14 turns I'm only counting what is needed to get irrigation to Hispanica that is 'extra' to what already would have been spent, thus clear and irrigate only.

No one has to take my word on it; I've invited, many times over, peope to run their own Sim's. Posting full blown reports for each Sim I've run (and I've run a few already) takes too much time. If you want numbers for each turn, run one yourself. I plan to run another Sim maybe concentrating on building more workers.

EDIT:

To try to answer one more of Dom's questions about the whether I was 'true' in both Sims concerning research rates....I did not spend any gold. I only had to keep the treasury in the black since I started with none. I adjust the research slider each turn to allow for maximum research for each Sim. If you look at the numbers on the last turn it is obvious. I did not play games with this Sim. I did not "rush" units in one and not the other. I did not upgrade units in one and not the other. I spent no gold on anything esle except for upkeep costs and research for each Sim.

Last edited by BigFree on 09-07-2003 at 03:43

	09-07-2003 03:46									#12
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Nothing against your efforts BF, but as Dominae said, stating "I ran a simulation, this is how things are" even though you didn't do the same thing both times and document it thoroughly skews the results. It takes hours and hours to do the things correctly, and having to match them up would take even more time. But from what I can tell the Temp City gives us more gold than keeping the population in Apolyton, and I don't know exactly how or why your simulation does not reflect that.

	09-07-2003 04:21									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I'm glad that BF has run this kind of sim, although it would have been nicer for it to have been done a lot sooner....

Personally, I think that the border is a bit more important, but that's my read on things.

I can work on the worker side of this soon, but I'm starting to feel a bit cruched.

E_T