08-07-2003 17:58									#1
	Weak units defend first? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Say I have a Phalanx fortified in my city, and a settler outside working.

An enemy chariot approaches.

On my next turn I cancel the settler's work and move him into the city (doh).

The chariot then attacks my city and kills the settler, leaving the phalanx unharmed.

WTF?!?!

That is completely ludicrous.

	08-07-2003 19:36									#2
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I have also seen this behavior.
Say I have a Stealth Bomber resting in a newly-captured city with 3 Mech. Infs.
An enemy Armor approaches and attacks the city.
My Stealth Bomber is destroyed.
Maybe the code that chooses the defending unit compares the wrong values.

	08-07-2003 23:54									#3
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The settler has 20 hit point, compared to the the phalanx's 10, so it is quite possible that it had a better chance of winning, which would be the reason that the code choose it. But it would probably have been smarter anyway if it had chosen the phalanx.

The stealth bomber thing sounds like a bug; but how many hit points the the mech inf's have left? If they had very few then the choice of defender would at least have made some sense.

Last edited by Thue on 09-07-2003 at 00:09

	09-07-2003 00:14									#4
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Well, coming from a background of Civ 1-3 and all the variants, it would definately have been smarter to choose the Phalanx!

Sheesh, I moved my settler into the city so he would be PROTECTED.

IMO the code should be changed... settlers are definately weaker and more valuable than phalanxes.

	09-07-2003 03:17									#5
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Why do you say a settler is a weaker defender than a phalanx? It doesn't seem obvious to me.

	09-07-2003 03:46									#6
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Settler's and phalanxes have the same defending ability.
settler=D:1 HP:20
phalanx=D:2 HP:10
the settler has half the chance of hitting but lasts twice as long.

My mech inf's all had full hp.

	09-07-2003 13:16									#7
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The Stealth Bomber is actually a very good defender, though a little costly.

The usual way of calculating defense worth is (defense power) * (hit points) * (firepower). The sum total for mech inf is 180, for stealth bomber it is 200. Surprised? The stealth bomber has less defense power and hitpoints, but the extra firepower more than makes up for it!

I remember that once I allowed the AI to build aircraft as city defenders (without regard to build cost), it choose to build stealth bombers. I was like "what the ***", but once I did the numbers, I realized it was not a bug. Later added an adjustment for build cost which made it stop doing that.

As to the settler vs phalanx: They are weighted the same according to the above calculation, but if the phalanx was fortified, it should have been stronger, and it should have been the defender.

(Note that the above calculation is not the one actually used to determine defender, but it is a close approximation.)

	09-07-2003 18:47									#8
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I thought the bonus was for units that were in a city xor fortified. Is it actually a non-exlusive or?

	09-07-2003 20:44									#9
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quote: Originally posted by geeslaka Settler's and phalanxes have the same defending ability. settler=D:1 HP:20 phalanx=D:2 HP:10 the settler has half the chance of hitting but lasts twice as long.

I am not sure you can conclude that way. At least it requires more arguments, which I am too lazy to make .

	10-07-2003 00:11									#10
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You don't get any defense bonus just for being in a city, IIRC. But if you are fortified inside a city, you receive normal fortification bonus. (Note that the 'fortifying' status does not count as 'fortified'. It takes one turn to become fully fortified.)

	10-07-2003 03:05									#11
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Actually begin in a city is the same as begin fortified which is the same as begin fortified in a city. combat.c:493 :

code:
  if ((pcity || fortified) && is_ground_unittype(def_type)) {
    defensepower = (defensepower * 3) / 2;
  }

	11-07-2003 01:48									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Thue, (begin -> being) Actually being in a city is the same as being fortified which is the same as being fortified in a city.

I agree based on the snippet of code, but intuitively being fortified in a city should be better than just being in a city.

Does anyone know how Civ I or II handled this? I would always fortify my defense troops in their cities...

	15-07-2003 21:20									#13
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I can't believe some of you are arguing that the settler "is as good a defender as the phalanx, so who cares if it defends first".

Perhaps it is as good as a defender. But its more expensive, costs one population point, and I built it to construct roads and irrigation, not to defend my city!!!

That is why the Phalanx (a military unit) was fortified in my city, and the Settler (a group of civilians) was merely seeking cover.

	16-07-2003 06:22									#14
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To me it seems like the best thing to do is to check all units on the space and defend with the one with the lowest cost to defense ratio.
A unit that has a cost of 50 and a defense rating of 80 would be chosen before a unit with a cost of 70 and a defense rating of 80.

Something tells me there is something slightly wrong with this ut I can't figure out what.

	17-07-2003 10:05									#15
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I have noticed this too. I had one phalanx in a city, and I just rush bought another. The phalanx which I rush bough died, and the fortified one remained alive, albeit at half strength.

	06-08-2003 14:24									#16
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Seems like the best solution would be, if there's a tie in calculated defense worth, the unit that costs the least defends. Maybe adding something in for Settlers, considering they also cost a population point. if you want to.

	07-08-2003 09:31									#17
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That would (generally) be good in cities and fortresses, but out in the open the best defender should always be chosen, because you'd lose both anyway.