09-07-2003 01:59									#1
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Can someone please give me a brief and simple (as far as possible) explanation of the ideas behind the big bang, how elements and atoms came into being, and what scientists think there was thewre before.

Also, i'd like to here a little about the idea that in a vacuum, electrons jump in and out of existence every now and then - though i am not surte weather this happens or not.


ty

	09-07-2003 02:03									#2
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Excellent question, Andy.

Scientists can't explain wher original matter came from.
Here, they'll sputter something, that's crap.

	09-07-2003 02:05									#3
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From what I know, Scientists have no idea of what was around before the big bang (from what I remember, they can only have data to reconstruct what the univere was like miliseconds after the big bang), although amoung the descriptions I've heard are that all the matter in the universe was compressed into the space the size of a pin head. I've heard speculation that time (or indeed, many of the rules of physics that we know and love) might not have existed back then (or existed in a different form). Also, since the universe may revert back into that state if and when there is a big crunch (when all matter gets compressed back together), there's the possibility that there was a whole other (or series of other) universes before ours. But, again, that's just speculation.

	09-07-2003 02:06									#4
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well, i just want an overview, or description of some sort, of what is thought to have caused the big bang, what theb iog bang was, and what might have been there before etc.

	09-07-2003 02:09									#5
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there is no 'before' the big bang, the big bang created time

another idea that i find troublesome, there had to be a tiny imbalance between matter and anti-matter like a trillion and one to a trillion

in the beginning, there was only one force, but as the universe expanded and cooling down it broke up into 3 forces, and then subatomic particles were formed as a result of the strong force, then matter from the electroweak force and then stars, galaxies because of gravity

the electrons thing is quantum mechanics which so far is pretty seperate from the whole big bang theory, which AFAIK is based on relativity and other subsequent theories

	09-07-2003 02:12									#6
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so if the big bang created time, where did 'space' come from the let the big bang happen in? and if there is littterally nothing, what could cause such a thing?

	09-07-2003 02:13									#7
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Ah yes someone said it.

"Before" does not apply. Sans Big Bang, no time, so no "before" possible.

As for the origins of matter, there are many theories, but they lie in a realm of astrophysics waaaaay beyond my ability to grasp right now. You can probably find different theories on the web pretty easily.

Sloww, just because you're intellectually incapable of understanding theories doesn't make them invalid. I'd love to see you try and explain quantum mechanics.

	09-07-2003 02:14									#8
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What created the big bang ?
The forces?

Scientists.

	09-07-2003 02:15									#9
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maybe our perception of time is wrong?

Also, i'd like to here, briefly, the most common thories on where matter came from.....

	09-07-2003 02:15									#10
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Read books by Stephen Hawking. They may require a higher-than-average intelligence at times, but are well worth it.

And yes, no before the Big Bang, because time only started to exist after it.

	09-07-2003 02:17									#11
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quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man so if the big bang created time, where did 'space' come from the let the big bang happen in? and if there is littterally nothing, what could cause such a thing?

The big bang created space as well. Time is a function of space, so without space, there is no time.

Space is a product of the bang. Think of the universe as the inside of a balloon. Totally deflated, the balloon has no interior space. But when inflated, the balloon's space expands exponentially.

Think of the Big Bang as the "air" filling the balloon with space.

	09-07-2003 02:19									#12
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I don't believe in time either.
Time. That's a concept for the convenience of man, and that's all.

	09-07-2003 02:19									#13
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but, to be difficult, was there anything that existed before time? and what, specificly, is time then?

also, if i am to go into a study of physics, quantum physics and astro physics for this point, how much actualy physics do i need to know?

	09-07-2003 02:19									#14
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more explanation to that previous post.

According to current theory, nothing that happened 'before' the big bang (if such a thing did exist) would have no impact on what happened after the big bang, because there was no causality, no laws of physics. The universe was infinitely small and infinitely dense, all matter, energy, dimensions, everything, was wrapped up in a singularity. There was no space, no time, nothing but this singularity, the big bang started everything.

Because of the big bang the universe started expanding and cooling, for the first few moments there was nothing we could recognize, still no matter, energy or even gravity etc. As the universe expanded the different forces we know seperated creating subatomic particles, it is believed that there was a slight imbalance between matter and anti-matter, after all if there wasn't an imbalance we wouldn't be here discussing it - after all a universe which doesn't create beings to observe it doesn't exist.

thats a basic summary, and done from memory, so don't kill me if it isn't 100% accurate

	09-07-2003 02:20									#15
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand I don't believe in time either. Time. That's a concept for the convenience of man, and that's all.

And you insist there must be a "creation" of the Big Bang, when "creation" implies a temporal relationship of cause and effect, something that can't exist without time...

	09-07-2003 02:22									#16
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quote: after all a universe which doesn't create beings to observe it doesn't exist

So (to be so much more difficult - but hey, i am undertaking a big subject here ) what constitutes the human conscience, and to what extent can a rock be aware of the universe (thus it exists) like a human being - saying there are no human beings, or other 'living' things.

also, does this mean, things only come into being when somebody notices it?

	09-07-2003 02:23									#17
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problem with these theories.... 100 years ago they would have been considered crazy, 100 years from now they will be considered crazy

	09-07-2003 02:23									#18
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quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man but, to be difficult, was there anything that existed before time? and what, specificly, is time then?

You can't have anything before time, since "before" denotes a temporal relationship, which can't exist sans time!

Time is a function of space. Basically, it is movement through space.

	09-07-2003 02:24									#19
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quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man also, does this mean, things only come into being when somebody notices it?

I guess that answers the quesiton of what happens when a tree falls in a forest and no one's around to hear it.

	09-07-2003 02:24									#20
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quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man So (to be so much more difficult - but hey, i am undertaking a big subject here ) what constitutes the human conscience, and to what extent can a rock be aware of the universe (thus it exists) like a human being - saying there are no human beings, or other 'living' things. also, does this mean, things only come into being when somebody notices it?

well thats all quantum entanglement.... like the tree falling in the woods, does it make a sound? according to quantum theory, until someone observes it is simultaneously in a state of existence/non-existence

like i said before, crazy talk

	09-07-2003 02:28									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Soul Survivor well thats all quantum entanglement.... like the tree falling in the woods, does it make a sound? according to quantum theory, until someone observes it is simultaneously in a state of existence/non-existence like i said before, crazy talk

yes, but the laws of physics surley mean it does make a sound, therefore something must notice it, so maybe a rock notices it, or the tree itself.

why does a human being have to notice it?


It looks like this will be a great topic to read tommorow

and if anyone klnow any good books to start on the leanr the principles of quantum mechanics, astro-physics and all that is related, please do so

	09-07-2003 02:38									#22
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anything by hawking is good, his books are pretty well written, and not too difficult to follow

a rock or tree aren't aware of their own existence, they can't "notice" anything..... observer is the key word

	09-07-2003 02:39									#23
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I don't believe that the Big Bang was the start of all time or that all matter in the universe came from it.

	09-07-2003 02:45									#24
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The most optomistic Big Bang theory is that our universe came from a densely packed sphere of matter that exploded, and that this sphere came from the densely packed remains of the universe before us. The difficulty in this, however, is that there is no beginning. Thus, when our universe comes to an end, it is hoped that it collapses into its own densely packed sphere of matter and explodes into another one.

However, also when a black hole becomes so heavy that it bends the space-time...wait...you didn't ask about that...put simply, it eventually comes to an end. Sorry.

	09-07-2003 02:53									#25
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I tend to think that the "Big Bang" is a localized event. Meaning there is more matter, farther away, that doesn't collapse. I think the "Big Bang" event occurs when a super black hole gets so dense, it reaches a critical mass and BOOM!

	09-07-2003 02:54									#26
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I believe that the universe is constant flux with another "plane", maybe multiple "planes", that over time ebb and wane between each other.

The differences between these planes is seen in anti-matter which makes up the polar of our plane. This anti-matter is transfered through stars and black holes. That where ever we have a star the other plane has a blackhole, and where we have blackholes that plane has stars. Currently the other plane contains less energy/matter than our plane.

The "big bang" is a point in time where the scale tipped in favor of our plane converting anti-matter into matter,l robbing the other plane of its matter.

Eventually the tide will wane, or is currently, to which we will end in a big suck, where the matter switches yet again.

Sounds stupid, but it was the best I could do

	09-07-2003 03:00									#27
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Since we're getting complicated here, I'll go ahead and explain universe birth. A black hole becomes so dense that it bends spacetime to itself, and eventually the spacetime snaps...the black hole is now seperated from the old universe and the black hole explodes and creates a new universe in a new Big Bang.

However, just remember that all of this is theoretical, which means you've got a better chance of deciding a theory right by tossing a coin than actual research probably.

	09-07-2003 03:09									#28
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I think the mental barrier for most is that everyone is locked, understandably, into a mentality that there must be a cause and effect for everything, and that something had to come from somewhere. Since the laws of our universe are structured this way, it's hard to break from that linear thinking. But keep in mind that the laws of the universe were created at the Big Bang, so without it, they aren't necessarily applicable. That's why the notion of "before" the Big Bang is meaningless, because without the universal laws governing time and space, there is no such thing as "before" or "after."

Likewise, we seemed locked into this idea that the natural state of things was "nothingness," and "something" sprang from that. This, however, is not really sound thinking. We have no idea that "nothingness" is even a viable concept, since we've never encountered or observed true "nothingness." Even the vacuum of space has "something" in it, such as cosmic rays and dust, particles, etc. It seems to me that it is most logical to assume that, since "something" is here, the natural state of things is "somethingness."

	09-07-2003 03:17									#29
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quote: But keep in mind that the laws of the universe were created at the Big Bang, so without it, they aren't necessarily applicable. That's why the notion of "before" the Big Bang is meaningless, because without the universal laws governing time and space, there is no such thing as "before" or "after."

I think the Universe and all its laws have existed infinitely, and will continue to forever.

	09-07-2003 03:27									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I think the mental barrier for most is that everyone is locked, understandably, into a mentality that there must be a cause and effect for everything, and that something had to come from somewhere. Since the laws of our universe are structured this way, it's hard to break from that linear thinking. But keep in mind that the laws of the universe were created at the Big Bang, so without it, they aren't necessarily applicable. That's why the notion of "before" the Big Bang is meaningless, because without the universal laws governing time and space, there is no such thing as "before" or "after."

Well this is totally religious thinking
And God said let there be light and there was light ....



and where was that thrad of mine that if time was infinite God was a 100% certainty...