10-07-2003 00:02									#31
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand The death penalty is an excellent example of black and white, if you have the facts. To the people insisting on gray, you're remembering to dig down to the lowest level, right? If you have the facts, there can be no gray; that's what I'm saying.

What lowest level? There is no such thing when it comes to moral decisions.

	10-07-2003 00:02									#32
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quote: That's very true. It's sad that for most people admitting that they don't know is very very hard. Even if there is nothing else at stake! They just have to have an opinion or they think they are weak.

In my field "I don't know" is an important phrase to remember. However, "I don't know" is not a gray phrase, it is black or white. Saying things like "I believe", or "I think", or "If I remember correctly" are gray phrases.

	10-07-2003 00:26									#33
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Personally, I prefer the Billy Joel song (Shades of Grey) to the Michael Jackson one (Black or White), but I believe Jackson's song was more popular.

	10-07-2003 00:38									#34
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Thanks for that insight, dejon.

	10-07-2003 00:39									#35
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Interesting to see legal examples being used. At criminal law, the burden of proof is to establish guilt beyond reasonable doubt. At civil law, it's to establish guilt/fault on the balance of probability.

A great example of grey think bringing black and white outcomes. It all boils down to the fact that no-one is omniscient, I suppose.

	10-07-2003 00:42									#36
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no mortal can see everything in black and white.

But I believe everything is ultimately black and white...

	10-07-2003 00:43									#37
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quote: no mortal can see everything in black and white.

is that a gray statement?

	10-07-2003 01:00									#38
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I see in colour, thank you.

	10-07-2003 01:07									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Japher In my field "I don't know" is an important phrase to remember. However, "I don't know" is not a gray phrase, it is black or white. Saying things like "I believe", or "I think", or "If I remember correctly" are gray phrases.

Do we have a different definition of "I don't know"???They are all "I don't know"'s, more exactly "I don't know for sure, but most likely". Even this is hard for some people to admit If that's not you, then good for you. Sometimes you know what was the right decision after you had to make it, sometimes never. Tons of desicions have both good and bad consequenses, or even unknown ones.

	10-07-2003 01:12									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Buck Birdseed I think of it as loads of little issues, all black or white, that together forms a complex picture in which the issues weighted against each other will nevertheless give the appearance of grayness. Like a digital picture- all ones and zeroes really, but nevertheless resulting in a 256-colour grayscale.

I acutally agree that there are lots of black and white things

and that it looks gray

that does not change the fundamental nature though

Jon Miller

	10-07-2003 01:14									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Zero no mortal can see everything in black and white. But I believe everything is ultimately black and white...

I agree

Jon Miller

	10-07-2003 01:35									#42
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Tassadar, I know I said no flames, but you're in the good old U.S. of A. now.
You need to spell it c-o-l-o-r. No "u".

Carry on.

	10-07-2003 01:43									#43
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quote: I think you hold some black and white positions here.

I don't hold any black and white positions here. I back 'grey' positions because that is all there is.

	10-07-2003 01:45									#44
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Black n' White!

	10-07-2003 02:55									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I think you hold some black and white positions here. I don't hold any black and white positions here. I back 'grey' positions because that is all there is.

One might say that your position about this is extreme, no? "Everything is certain way" is black or white.

	10-07-2003 03:23									#46
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Shades of grey. There are no absolutes.

	10-07-2003 03:29									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Starchild Shades of grey. There are no absolutes.

Why do otherwise intelligent people make statements like this

	10-07-2003 03:30									#48
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People are lazy and won't look for the facts that let them make a decision.
I said that initially, and it's been proven throughout the thread.
Which is cool. That's fine.

	10-07-2003 03:30									#49
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No banana option?

	10-07-2003 03:49									#50
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I see people who make black & white decisions as people who are not really willing to delve into the facts more often then not, or not willing to consider facts that might be contrary to the decision they have already made.

This isn't always the case, but for a large number of people it is, which makes me question your assumption that shades of grey people are lazy or not willing to consider all the facts. Often, if you consider ALL facts available to you, you'll find pros and cons for both sides = grey. I would think the shades of grey people are that way because they are willing to look at facts more objectively.

By the way, being a shade of grey person doesn't mean you're indecisive. It just means more often then not you've got to make decisions based on probable outcomes as opposed to certainties.

	10-07-2003 05:07									#51
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand People are lazy and won't look for the facts that let them make a decision. I said that initially, and it's been proven throughout the thread. Which is cool. That's fine.

Some people aren't full of them selves and can admit that they don't know everything, that they aren't omniscient.

	10-07-2003 07:19									#52
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quote: The death penalty is an excellent example of black and white, if you have the facts. To the people insisting on gray, you're remembering to dig down to the lowest level, right?If you have the facts, there can be no gray; that's what I'm saying.

But neither option is absolutely wonderful and perfect (call it white) while the other is horribly evil (call it black). There are a lot of pros to keeping the death penalty and a lot of pros to abolishing it. If you study the issue in depth, maybe you can come out with the conclusion that the pros of keeping the death penalty slightly outweigh the cons of it, you can say that keeping is a slightly lighter shade of grey than getting rid of it, and make your decision on that basis.

When I think of "black and white", I think more of someone who would say "Keeping the death penalty is the only possibility, no one innocent ever gets murdered, anyone who supports getting rid of the death penalty must be either a lunatic who ought to be committed or a communist trying to destroy the country" or something. With the exception of some religions and "Lord of the Rings", you never get that kind of all-good vs. all-bad conflict, and you've got to choose between greys.

	10-07-2003 08:01									#53
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Grey. There is no absolute right or wrong in most if not all moral issues.

	10-07-2003 08:03									#54
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quote: One might say that your position about this is extreme, no? "Everything is certain way" is black or white.

Not really... because I'm not saying that I'm 100% right. I could be wrong (ie, a shade of grey).

	10-07-2003 08:06									#55
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yep, i agree with sloww. black and white without question.

	10-07-2003 08:42									#56
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Black, white and liberal, no gray.

	10-07-2003 12:05									#57
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Neither Black or White... the answer's Hispanic

for real though yall can probably guess what my position would be... some things are right and some things are wrong. enough said.

	10-07-2003 12:27									#58
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Can I still say 'United Negro College Fund'?

	10-07-2003 15:00									#59
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quote: All it means by saying that you only see things in black or white is that you have actually bothered to make an informed opinion.

I would say its the other way round. Most ppl. who think about everything in terms of black and white, havent really informed themselves about the topic. Usually some statements from other persons/groups are taken for the ultimate truth. This is esspecially true for religious people. For example most Christians base their opinions on the bible or religous leaders, they dont go for facts.

Ultimatly there is always a up and downsite to all issues thus the world is grey. For example food-donation to poor ppl in Africa or somewhere. You have the upsite of ppl. beeing feed and not starving. But you have the downsite of discouraging them from doing something on their own to get out of this mess (like farming their own food). Same goes for any other issue, also they are sometimes very close to entirly black...

	10-07-2003 16:25									#60
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I only see shades of Yellow... as in Banana