09-07-2003 21:38									#1
	Black and White, or Shades of Gray ? Support Apolyton

In the past I've been told that I see things too much in a Black and White perspective; that many gray areas exist.

Not surprising, I suppose, I disagree.

IMO, the only reason for gray's existence is that the point in question hasn't been clearly defined, and laziness in that regard exists.
Either the one posing the question should define the question more completely all on their own, or the person responding should ask questions that get to the details.
I think if one breaks down a subject to the core, an opinion is always available.

One reason I ask, I see the effect of gray here quite often.


What do you think?
No flames from me on this, I promise.
Really.
I swear.

	09-07-2003 21:42									#2
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Allways gray.

Edit: OOPS! not allways of course

	09-07-2003 21:46									#3
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I agree Sloww.

The only time grey's exist are when the situation hasn't been adequatly defined. Everything should be black or white. However, that is not always the case, but in those cases more inquiry should be made to turn them black or white...

All it means by saying that you only see things in black or white is that you have actually bothered to make an informed opinion.

	09-07-2003 21:51									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Damn, Japher. I like the hell out of you.

	09-07-2003 21:57									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I agree everything is always white or black

however, I think that it is hard to see whether it is white or black sometimes (and people should be aware of that)

Jon Miller

	09-07-2003 22:06									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

To some extent I agree. Excuse my english, hard to explain my opinion on this one.

Depends what we're talking about. If you base your opinion on facts that are undisputed, then yes, it is black and white.

We can expect and assume, that facts are not in conflict. Or if they are, then some facts are not exactly facts, and then there must be more researching of the facts to determine what's really the case.

And, when it comes to a thing where facts are not much, or that the facts can go either way depending how an individual interpretes it.. it could be argued there are grey areas. But then again, to the individual who is observing the situation.. he/she must do the thinking and decide what to think of it, hopefully based on facts and less on emotion and feelings. So, to everyone there should be a side, black and white. If grey areas exists, then the individual has not chosen his/her side on the issue and should do more research about the situation if it is important.

Damn it. I can't explain it. Well this matter should be on individual level, not in general IMO. In general, there are feelings and emotions, which sometimes blurs the undisputed facts and affects how people decide.

It's problematic though, because feelings and emotions often are based on memories, and are those memories facts? Not necessarily.

Perhaps everything is black and white, and everyting else someone calls the grey area is just a matter of taste and that's it. Or lack of facts.

	09-07-2003 22:13									#7
	Increase the size of your Attachments

But as of now, I'm still undecided

	09-07-2003 22:19									#8
	Remove this text

I don't care, really.

	09-07-2003 22:21									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Damn, Japher. I like the hell out of you.

I like me too

	09-07-2003 22:21									#10
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

black or white, i'd have to say, only where there is the presence of enough factual infomation to make an informed decision.

shades of grey occur everywhere else, primarily because we a) live in an amoral world and are trying to impose morality in this world, and b) frequently do not have enough information to make an informed decision.

thus, while it in civil society, killing someone for personal gain is a black-or-white manner (it's wrong), in the absence of society, personal gain might involve self-preservation, thus killing would be good.

	09-07-2003 22:24									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: [img]http://www.adoredcelebrities.com/jessica/images/25.jpg[/img

(1) Disgusting
(2) Badly photoshopped
(3) You failed to type it right.

EDIT: He fixed it, but I'll still stick with 3.

	09-07-2003 22:27									#12
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Shades of grey: you can;t really tell well the difference betweent he darkest grey and pure black, nor with the lighetst shade of grey and pure white. Most things can NOT be firmly defined.

	09-07-2003 22:29									#13
	Increase the size of your Attachments

sometimes black and white, sometimes not

	09-07-2003 22:29									#14
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Gray. It is good to be reasonable, look at things with an open mind, and be willing to compromise.

	09-07-2003 22:29									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Everything is in shades of grey. Nothing is totally black or white.

	09-07-2003 22:30									#16
	Remove this text

What's disgusting?

	09-07-2003 22:33									#17
	Get a bigger avatar today!

It is important not to think that decisively choosing to follow one shade of grey as being the same as turning the situation into Black or White. You simply have decided that for this time, this one shade is called for, and you will act on that decision.

	09-07-2003 22:44									#18
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Good point GePap, but that is what people see as being black and white. Someone who makes a decision about something. It is a form of arrogance, but IMO it is more, it is determination. Idle hands do make for the devils work... I really hate it when someone cannot make up there mind about something, nor take a stance on anything. For those of us who have formed opinions and stances, and reasons for those stances, we will be told the we only see things in black and white. Yet, this is just not true.

We do see things in grey, but when we see those things we address them and create an opinion, and stand by that opinion, until we have to say oh I must be wrong. Only a true polition sees everything in fluctuating shades of grey.

Example: Do you agree with the Death Penalty?

I am for it, and I can argue it until I am blue in the face. Thus, I see this as a black or white stance.

A politician, who sees things as grey, will merely state that penal codes should be addressed with greater diligence to insure that our society remains safe for all law abiding citizens. For those we deem guilty of the most hanis of crimes the death penalty is an option that may or may not be used with disgression.

	09-07-2003 22:46									#19
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: A politician, who sees things as grey, will merely state that penal codes should be addressed with greater diligence to insure that our society remains safe for all law abiding citizens. For those we deem guilty of the most hanis of crimes the death penalty is an option that may or may not be used with disgression.

Good politician

	09-07-2003 22:48									#20
	Remove this text

Yeah, Japher rules ok

	09-07-2003 23:08									#21
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

There is no such thing as black or white, with or without. There are varying shades.

	09-07-2003 23:13									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: There is no such thing as black or white, with or without. There are varying shades.

That may be very well true, but the topic is on personal views of "things" not on their true nature... If everyone saw things in shades of gray than nothing would ever get done because a decision would never be made. This is why we have so many meetings, councils, and board members... We hope someone at least has the ability to do something... The proof, as they say, is in the pudding... not the recipe or intention of writting one.

	09-07-2003 23:14									#23
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I think of it as loads of little issues, all black or white, that together forms a complex picture in which the issues weighted against each other will nevertheless give the appearance of grayness. Like a digital picture- all ones and zeroes really, but nevertheless resulting in a 256-colour grayscale.

	09-07-2003 23:17									#24
	Remove this text

Japher, you don't see the death penalty as a black and white thing... at least I hope you don't.

Someone who is totally against the death penalty would not choose to employ the death penalty for any crime. Therefore, someone who is totally for the death penalty would choose to employ the death penalty for any crime.

Surely, you would not execute every person convicted of a crime.

Then you say that only those deserving of the death penalty should get it. In this case, you must qualify the conditions for which the death penalty is deserved. In doing so, you remove yourself from the ultimate end of the issue; you remove yourself from black and white.

You have to see in shades of grey.

	09-07-2003 23:24									#25
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Good point Lorizael. I definitly don't believe everyone who commits a crime should be killed.

	09-07-2003 23:36									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

The death penalty is an excellent example of black and white, if you have the facts.
To the people insisting on gray, you're remembering to dig down to the lowest level, right?
If you have the facts, there can be no gray; that's what I'm saying.

	09-07-2003 23:43									#27
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Everything is in shades of grey. Nothing is totally black or white.

Everything? Nothing? I think you hold some black and white positions here.

	09-07-2003 23:49									#28
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I think grey but act black and white.

	09-07-2003 23:51									#29
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand The death penalty is an excellent example of black and white, if you have the facts. To the people insisting on gray, you're remembering to dig down to the lowest level, right? If you have the facts, there can be no gray; that's what I'm saying.

Unfortunately, it's not always possible to dig down to the lowest level. Sometimes you simply don't have the resources (time, facts, money, etc...) to know all there is to know about an issue.

	09-07-2003 23:58									#30
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Lorizael Unfortunately, it's not always possible to dig down to the lowest level. Sometimes you simply don't have the resources (time, facts, money, etc...) to know all there is to know about an issue.

That's very true. It's sad that for most people admitting that they don't know is very very hard. Even if there is nothing else at stake! They just have to have an opinion or they think they are weak.