12-07-2003 02:38									#61
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Will ND still respect the NDA that they signed with GoW over Chivalry if and once they are attacked?

	12-07-2003 02:47									#62
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You are kidding, right?

	12-07-2003 02:58									#63
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Yes, that was a rhetorical question.

Although, now that I think about it... there exists the remote possibility that ND will still respect the NDA. They may feel that we've set some kind of a standard when we respected our NDA with GoW when they surprise-attacked us... nah.
Anyway, we must not count on RP not having Chivalry.

	12-07-2003 15:29									#64
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Since it turns out that this will probably be a joint effort, each of the parties involved will have to send the rest detailed war reports immediately after they finish playing their turn.
If we trust eachother up until the point of launching a joint attack and ND trusts GoW not to RoP-Rape them, then agreeing to this shouldn't be a problem.

	12-07-2003 16:53									#65
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So looks like we are going to hit RP then, only intelligence regarding RP forces is a PM recieved from GK claiming to have alot of defensive units incase they were attacked by the other 2 "so many that if they were offensive we could have taken all of bob", although the credibility is questionable.

Although 3v1 maybe messy especially with ND not wanting us to have any bob cities we can we can do alot with this. If we can do everything we can to pit ND and GoW against each other, maybe cause disagreements over cities etc then perhaps once RP are gone we can make a deal with one of them to kill the other then split bob 50/50.

I think the war in the north is going to be a stalemate at first with the coalition troops not making much headway, then GS will turn the tide by attacking the south, we'll take most/alot of the cities which will be quite awkward for distributing the land, why should we give them the cities we've fought hard for etc.

Also looks like I'm going to be out of a job is there anything I can do diplomatically with RP before the war have been stalling (well hiding from BF) over the NAP with luxs issue.

	12-07-2003 19:36									#66
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Btw, has anyone taken in account, that with 1.21f war weariness is back in PBEM?

	12-07-2003 20:11									#67
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Has this been tested?
We might want to plan this war so that when we invade, we'll let RP have the first shot at us so they'll be the ones that declared war on us in-game. This will give us some negative WW to eat through before our WW becomes positive.

	12-07-2003 20:21									#68
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I just can't see how we spliy RP so that ND and GoW are satisfied, especially with us in the picture.
I also have to say that it seems to me that GoW wishes our intervention not much more than ND- just look at how many times they suggested us "just sending some empty galleys" or that "if you choose not to bring forces, we repesct that". GoW is aware of the serious geographical problem, so I'm not suprised with them wishing us to stick with what we have.

However, since RP is rather big, and because both RP and ND's core are west of the center of Bob, and that we are planning to attack from the east- we could carve ourselves a nice piece of the pie on the eastern part of Bob.

We should take advantage of our NAP with GoW- peace for 30 turns means we can stop worrying about them threatening our acquisitions on Bob, while I hardly believe ND will be so daring and attack us in the near future, with a hard war fought against RP, and a RoP with GoW.

Our strategic goal will be to make headways on the ground, while "laundrying" them with war time diplomacy. Since GoW and ND doesn't look like they want us overly involved, and probably don't plan to share their tactical plans with us- we could allow ourselves some freedom of action.
This is war, and land grab is our most powerful weapon against our "allies" 2-3 coastal towns on Bob is what we need right now, and this goal is definitely within our reach.

	12-07-2003 20:59									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber Has this been tested? We might want to plan this war so that when we invade, we'll let RP have the first shot at us so they'll be the ones that declared war on us in-game. This will give us some negative WW to eat through before our WW becomes positive.

It is confirmed out of my running PBEMs.

	12-07-2003 22:10									#70
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I think that RP has a decent shot at repelling the initial invasion, you have mobile units coming out of the jungles at a few points.

I see the invasion coming from Marlowa to sack Santiago and Zaragoza. It loooks like, due to the jungle, RP will have a minimum 2 turns heads up on the advance. Zaragoza looks fairly holdable, walled and across a river. Santiago is not so lucky, a landing to its 9 would bypass the river, nonetheless, it does have walls. If Santiago falls early, then Zaragoza is more easily beseiged and Leon is toast. They will sweep down and take Vigo next, to eliminate the iron. But they don't need to take Vigo immeditately, they can just cut the road south of Santiago.

Due to the jungle, catapaults will not be coming from the north, which will greatly aid the defense.

Eastern RP: They might come down from Mavdad to hit Toledo. I hope Toledo has a RP grog on that mountain 98.

If RP has a decent defense, which they can concentrate in the three border cities, then they might hold out for a bit.

Not sure if this has been done, but we need to establish embassies ASAP with at least RP next turn (and possibly GoW) so that we can spy.


I think we should wait from entering the battle, hoping for a quagmire in the North. Perhaps ND and GoW will be more willing to let us maintain 5-6 cities on Bob if we are required to break RP.

	13-07-2003 01:21									#71
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I would want at least two luxury cities.

	13-07-2003 01:47									#72
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I think we should take everything we can, which probably would end up everything SE of the Mountains. If worst comes to worst, we can use that range to very good effect as a defensive line against ND/GoW, while we plot with Lego about how to split Bob.

	13-07-2003 03:44									#73
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The more we take, or if we were to take anything at all at this point, the more likely it would be that GoW and ND team up against us.

As long as there are 2 civs on bob we will be unwelcome. After reading the contact logs I'm still uneasy about this whole thing. We are not so much welcomed into the fight as mearly being appeased into not joining in on RP's side.

We need to seriously consider things here. Are we just being duped into an alliance with us being next in the firing line, if we take land on bob will we be able to prevent a ND GoW gang up against us, will we be able to split ND and GoW once this is over and then take some serious bob land? I can't really see lego joining in on a plot to take all of bob.

Last edited by OPD on 13-07-2003 at 03:53

	13-07-2003 04:06									#74
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OPD, I am waaaay nervous too.

Once again, we are not writing the script of world events...

	13-07-2003 04:52									#75
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What if we condition our support of GoW+ND in any future campaigns against Lego with the right to retain some part of Bob (details to be discussed later) at least until the war against Lego is over? (afterwards, we can swap our territories on Bob for territories on Lego Land)

	13-07-2003 04:56									#76
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We can also sign on aiding GoW militarily should ND choose to backstab them during the period between the end of the war against RP and the end of the war against Lego. That could encourage them to put pressure on ND to "allow" us into this war, and to put pressure later that we will get more of RP's land at the expense of ND.

	13-07-2003 05:35									#77
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Wasn't it determined that Stormia + Legoland is not enough for us to win a domination victory?

I instually don't like the idea of giving up territory, unless I know that it's territory we can take back.

	13-07-2003 14:29									#78
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If we get Stormia + some territories on Lego Land, that won't be enough to win immediately but certainly a lot. The idea would be to then attack the rest of the civs on Lego while defending Stormia, and then if we have to, go to Bob.

	13-07-2003 16:03									#79
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No, we need Bob land if we want to win, which is why I don't want to give it to ND+GoW...

Back to the design topic: Don't we need to establish an embassy with RP very soon, preferably next turn?

DeepO

	13-07-2003 16:30									#80
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Btw, there's a galley crossing between Lego and RP, a little south of Vigo. It's only one tile of sea... RP are fools for not having discovered Lego first.
So anyway, Lego can easily join in the pile-up if they want to... only I doubt GoW and ND would take kindly to that.

	13-07-2003 17:36									#81
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Is there? So... Lego can also help RP without GoW noticing... interesting to keep in mind. For sure RP is scouting those tiles, though, so a pikes-on-iron plot isn't really worth the effort (except that pikes draw more expensive forces away)

As to not discovering them first: RP has only recently build a harbor on the West side of their territory, they didn't know about the sea as they were not exploring at all. There's a good chance they have one or two galleys only so far.

I was looking at the RP map, and wondered how we would defend our territory if we were RP. It seems the bonus grass 57 from NM can cover 3 cities on defense, and could very well have some reinforcements in place. If we investigate NM, and then declare war (or are invaded, and get declared war upon), we can't be certain what is in the city the moment we're ready to attack. Unless we get Legoland to investigate the city for us...
(I am right in thinking you can't investigate while at war, no?)

Further, it would take ND 2 turns at least before they can take their first city, and it looks like their only option for that would be to go via Zaragosa. Very likely, this will be heavily fortified by RP (and this could become worse if RP either grows the city naturally, or by adding a worker: it is size 6 with walls, and tests have shown that if it grows to size 7, it will still receive the walls bonus, on top of the city (and not town) defense bonus.)

ND needs Zaragosa as an entry point, but other cities could go down as well. However, in all cases it will be a bloody war if RP has enough cats and MIs, the terrain certainly favours the defenders. There is but one real alternative, and that are invasions. We know GoW has plenty of galleys (see the Trappings), ND probably has none, or very few. If we do it right, we could take most of RP with a couple of galleys full of troops...

DeepO

	13-07-2003 17:39									#82
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Oh, by that invasion comment, I of course meant that if I was GoW, I would take those galleys of mine, circumvent ND, and land a lot of troops in the neighbourhood of Vigo and Santiago. That way, ND takes most losses going for Zaragosa, and they don't run into each other's paths

DeepO

	17-07-2003 18:58									#83
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Ok, we're probably within a few turns of the go/no go decision. As NYE said, once a major Spanish city falls, we should move.

I've been pondering our landing(s). The first question is where to land. The second is whether to make more than 1 landing. The third is exactly what to bring, depending on the answers to the first 2 questions.

If we land by NM, we probably face a tougher fight (and there is a higher chance that the landing zone might be blocked), but we gain strategic ground we need. If we land by Barcelona, I'd expect an easier fight, and have little worry about the LZ. But then we have to come north at NM, and we run the risk of 1) facing stiffer opposition of a forewarned RP, or 2) the loss of NM to GoW, if their Riders get lucky.

There is the possibility of dividing our forces to take the two cities simultaneously, but that adds more risk to the equation. I don't think that's the way to go.

Do we maybe want to rush out a vet galley sometime soon to escort our invasion force?

Force composition:

1 settler
6 pikes
3 cats
5 med infs
3 knights

What about that? I figure the priority for the 2nd wave should be the 3 elite WCs, more knights and more cats.

-Arrian

	17-07-2003 19:13									#84
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I say go for NM first, and don't split our forces - that's asking for two defeats. I'd rather see 2 cats and an extra pike or knight (if we can afford another knight that is).

Then again, I'd rather see another 5 galleys and enough spare units to fill all of them.

Agree that the second wave should be more cat friendly - once we've got a city that needs defending, cats become valuable. Defending stacks in enemy territory, and attacking cities makes them considerably less useful, and none of our targets have walls at the moments, so their value in attack is minimal. I'd quite happily live with no cats in the first wave in all honesty, but I suppose two can be useful without compromising safety too much.

I don't think we need extra galley cover - if we stay as far as possible from out landing zone, there is only one possible coast tile that we can be reached from by a non-lighthouse galley, and the odds of having one there that is moving out to see to scout for us rather than moving north with all haste is quite slim. I'm happy trying to risk it.

	17-07-2003 19:25									#85
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Hmm, you've got a point about the cats. I basically figured that less than 3 was pointless. So, perhaps we go with none, and bring this along:

1 settler
8 pikes
5 med inf
4 knights

Then the second wave could be made up of knights, cats, a couple more pikes, another settler (?) and maybe some workers.

-Arrian

	17-07-2003 19:33									#86
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As per my testing with this, the cats do have some value for initial defense of a stack (to the tune of about an 8% chance of winning one more pike battle per cat, against attacking MI), up to the point where there are more attackers than pikes. I'd be surprise if RP could spare more than 6 MI at the moment, but it doesn't hurt to be prepared against nasty surprises. Plus we have to hold the town for possibly a few turns until our galleys can bring in the next wave, and if we've got a bit unlucky and lost 3 or 4 pikes already...

I think I stick with my original comment - we'll get more use out of putting non-cat units in our limited galley places unless RP rush-builds walls in one of our targets.

	17-07-2003 19:44									#87
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Yeah, that makes sense. So, as the Co-General of the Armies, I make the following request of our Poobah:

Gimme 1 settler!
Gimme 8 pikes!
Gimme 5 med infs!
Gimme 4 knights!

What does it spell? Muerta Espana!

Load 'em up and prepare to launch operation "Rogue Wave!"

-Arrian

	17-07-2003 21:12									#88
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Two waves isn't necessary, since we will just swoop down the coast anyway.


We need an empty galley or two to take out any galleys in the way. Like I mentioned before, RP probably has at least three-and we have seen two, the Nina and the Pinta-one by us and one by ND-that leaves the santa maria.