10-07-2003 02:07									#1
	Help Siro pick a graphics card Got spare money?

1. browse the different vga cards list.
2. recommend Siro something for less than 700 shekels

siro's requirements:
1. good 2D (hi res. no jumpy movies)
2. good 3D (for RON and such)
3. able to work with pentium II 400
4. will not cause much trouble or conflicts (if you know something is inherently evil, recommend against it)

PS: I have an AGP slot (doesn't that sound kinky? )

EDIT : I had some difficulties with the striking effect. But I left an interesting effect for you to enjoy

I don't know the differences between different companies, nor do I know the difference between radeon and geforce, nor do I know what geforce MX is better...

So if you have the will power - please elaborate


The list:
(crossed, means too expensive)


Chaintech
GF 2 MX400 32MB - 150 NIS
GF 4 MX440 DDR 64MB,TV - 240 NIS
GF 4 MX440 DDR 128MB,TV - 310 NIS
GF FX5200 128MB AGPx8,TV,DVI - 450 NIS
GF FX5600 256MB AGPx8,TV,DVI - 1090 NIS
GF FX5200 Ultra 128MB AGPx8,TV,DVI - 1230 NIS

ASUS
V9180 GF4 MX440 64MB,TV,AGPx8 - 380 NIS
V9280 Ti4200 64MB,TV,DVI,AGPx8 - 770 NIS
V9280 Ti4200 128MB,TV,DVI,AGPx8 - 880 NIS
V9520 FX5200 64MB,TV - 430 NIS
V9520 FX5200 128MB,TV - 520 NIS
V9560 FX5600 128MB,TV,DVI - 1070 NIS
V9900 FX5800 128MB,TV,DVI - 2050 NIS

Leadtek
GF 4 MX440SE DDR 64MB,TV - 260 NIS
GF 4 MX440 DDR 64MB,TV +VIVO - 320 NIS
GF 4 MX460 DDR 64MB,TV +VIVO - 350 NIS
GF 4 Ti4200 128MB,DVI,vivo - 830 NIS
GF FX5200 64MB AGPx8,TV - 460 NIS
GF FX5200 128MB AGPx8,TV - 590 NIS
GF FX5600 128MB AGPx8,VIVO - 1070 NIS
GF FX5600 256MB AGPx8,VIVO - 1230 NIS
FX5600 Ultra 128MB AGPx8,VIVO - 1350 NIS

TYAN
Techayon G9700Pro 128Mb,TV,DVI - 1830 NIS

Sapphir (ATI)
RADEON 9100 TV,DVI 64MB - 380 NIS
RADEON 9100 TV,DVI 128MB - 460 NIS
RADEON 9200 TV,DVI 64MB - 440 NIS
RADEON 9200 TV,DVI 128MB - 500 NIS

ATI
RADEON 9500Pro TV,DVI 128MB - 1190 NIS
RADEON 9600Pro TV,DVI 128MB - 1120 NIS
RADEON 9800Pro TV,DVI 128MB - 2430 NIS

MSI
GF 4 Ti4200 128MB AGPx8,DVI - 720 NIS
GF 4 Ti4200 128MB AGPx8,DVI,vivo - 790 NIS
GF 4 Ti4800SE 128MB AGPx8,DVI,vivo - 990 NIS

ABIT
GF FX5200 128MB AGPx8,TV - 490 NIS
GF 4 Ti4200 64MB TV - 650 NIS
GF FX5600 256MB AGPx8,TV,DVI - 1080 NIS
GF FX5800 128MB AGPx8,TV,DVI - 2550 NIS

Gainward
GF FX5200 64MB AGPx8,TV - 450 NIS
GF FX5600 256MB AGPx8,TV,DVI - 1180 NIS

	10-07-2003 03:06									#2
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technophiles? where art thou?

	10-07-2003 03:18									#3
	Increase the size of your Attachments

The site design is downright horrible. Ugh.

Below 700 shekels, I'd think either the Radeon 9100 (around 400 shekels) or the GeForce4 Ti 4200 with 64MB of memory (640 shekels iirc) would be good choices. They aren't equivalent cards, the Ti 4200 is better, but all the other Radeon cards are a bit too expensive. So I think in your situation I'd take the Ti 4200. NVidia drivers are said to be better (easier, less problems) than the ATi ones, but I have no personal experience and the ATi drivers are supposedly getting better.

Of course, if you have a P2 400, the Ti 4200 won't necessarily help you. What sort of a system do you have altogether? You do have an AGP slot to put the card in?

Oh and MX's aren't better. I think I read somewhere that a GeForce4 MX equals a 'regular' GeForce2 in some respects. Oh and card manufacturers (Leadtek, Sapphire etc.) should be of no consequence, the chips are pretty identical. The quality of the memory might vary but that's of importance mainly to overclockers.

(I have no deeper knowledge of graphics cards but I've read a lot of threads like this lately)

Last edited by Kassiopeia on 10-07-2003 at 03:27

	10-07-2003 03:27									#4
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On a PII 400 anything better than a GeForce 2 is a waste of time IMO

	10-07-2003 03:29									#5
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quote: On a PII 400 anything better than a GeForce 2 is a waste of time IMO

Yeah, I'd rather save for an entirely new inexpensive-ish system. If he has an integrated video card to top it off, he'd need a PCI card which are also a waste of time, and money.

	10-07-2003 03:32									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

TI 4200 is a nice card, but reds is right. On a PII, you won't really notice anything past an old TNT2 card. I dunno about there, but here Athlon 2600+ boards and processors are less than $100, and a stick of 512 runs around $50-$60.

	10-07-2003 03:37									#7
	Got spare money?

quote: Athlon 2600+ boards and processors are less than $100, and a stick of 512 runs around $50-$60.

Even a 1700+ (60 euros here) with 256 megs (40 euros) would be more than enough compared to a P2. Add a motherboard (~90 euros), use your old case and drives, get a new power source (300 or 350W, ~60 euros?), a cooler for the processor (~15 euros), and you have a decent computer.

I can understand Siro if he simply can't afford more than 700 shekels though. I've been there. I'm sorry but a new graphics card won't do it.

	10-07-2003 03:46									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

A good rule of thumb is to aviod any graphics cards with MX in their name.

	10-07-2003 04:22									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Sounds like you don't have enough to properly update your system and upgrading to something already a generation old isn't a wonderful feeling.

AMD are no longer the price performance wonder they once were. The XP2600 isn't great price/performance value.

The sweet spot right now is a P4 2.6C on an Abit IS-7 with a Radeon 9500 (pro? i can't recall.)

hope this helps... although I understand if you can't afford it you can't afford it...

	10-07-2003 04:44									#10
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quote: You do have an AGP slot to put the card in?

Of course

I will upgrade to a Pentium 4 some time later this year.

But meanwhile, I can't afford a more expensive graphics card.

700 is the top limit. up to 500 would be preferable.

	10-07-2003 04:51									#11
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by spiritof1202 Sounds like you don't have enough to properly update your system and upgrading to something already a generation old isn't a wonderful feeling. AMD are no longer the price performance wonder they once were. The XP2600 isn't great price/performance value. The sweet spot right now is a P4 2.6C on an Abit IS-7 with a Radeon 9500 (pro? i can't recall.) hope this helps... although I understand if you can't afford it you can't afford it...

Actually 2600+ is. Why? Because intel don't give you anything good for 100 $ / €.
If your going to go for 200 $ / € + priced CPU then consider p4's

	10-07-2003 05:15									#12
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quote: I will upgrade to a Pentium 4 some time later this year. But meanwhile, I can't afford a more expensive graphics card. 700 is the top limit. up to 500 would be preferable.

Hmm... by upgrading to P4 you mean getting a new motherboard, a new processor and new memory right? What are you going to do with a new graphics card before that? Their prices might drop and you'd be better off buying the card along with your main upgrade than getting it now for no gain.

quote: If your going to go for 200 $ / € + priced CPU then consider p4's

Yeah, if you have the money, go for Pentium 4 by all means, but on the "budget" prices the Celeron's a joke compared to Athlon XPs. After 2600+ though the processors get much more expensive compared to the speed.

	10-07-2003 05:22									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

hi ,

héy , get an amd

and wait a bit longer , some of those expensive one shall drop the prize , ...... ( some shall be around nis 750 , the ones that are now around nis 1050 )

have a nice early morning

	10-07-2003 05:24									#14
	Put an end to popups!

ok i don't need advice on upgrading motherboard and stuff.

I got my dad to pay for a new graphics card, and that is what I'm going to buy now.

	10-07-2003 05:28									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov ok i don't need advice on upgrading motherboard and stuff. I got my dad to pay for a new graphics card, and that is what I'm going to buy now.

hi ,

*now* , ......

how on earth did you do that , ......

allas , buy an amd

well good luc kwith it

have a nice day

	10-07-2003 05:28									#16
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I really need a new card. I have an old old 8 MB MAtrox Millenium G200 AGP....

	10-07-2003 05:29									#17
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quote: ok i don't need advice on upgrading motherboard and stuff.

Good, good, I was just worried that you were thinking that you could put a P4 on a P2 motherboard.

Under 500, I'd say Radeon 9100. Between 128 and 64 megs it's a bit tricky, 128MB would be good if you don't intend to upgrade from that for quite a while, 64 megs if you are going to get a newer 128 meg card like a R9700 in the approximate future, i.e. 2004 - 2005.

	10-07-2003 05:33									#18
	Inflate your Upload Space

geForce is considered all that in Israel.

Why would you recommend Radeon?

And by which manufacturer?

My dad seems to think it's a big difference. (he works as an R&D engineer in a high tech company, and his office neighbour is the system and admin who's also responsible for the hardware)

My dad is clueless though as to the effects of different 2D and 3D thingies

	10-07-2003 05:35									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Good, good, I was just worried that you were thinking that you could put a P4 on a P2 motherboard.

I was until my dad slapped some sense into me

He used to know more about PC hardware, but not since he's been busy in R&D.

	10-07-2003 05:46									#20
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Why would you recommend Radeon?

Of the listed cards, that's the one below 500 shekels and is still a pretty decent piece of work. It was originally the 8500 but the 9000 was so slow that they renamed it to 9100, but I digress. Of the same price range, I suppose the GF FX 5200 might be a possibility, but what I've heard from the FX cards hasn't been too encouraging. I'm getting a R9100 at 64MB myself in a few weeks. If I had more money I'd probably get a GF Ti 4200.

quote: And by which manufacturer?

Doesn't really matter, Radeon chips are manufactured by only two or three different companies and the differences are not big and meaningful usually only to overclockers. Btw, 9100 Limited Edition is a bit slower than the 'plain' 9100. The Sapphire cards listed ought to be good.

quote: I was until my dad slapped some sense into me

Way to go Siro's dad! My dad tries to suggest me all these retail computers that cost a fortune and have stuff like an integrated modem and hoots of programs we won't need... I myself didn't know lots about modern hardware until last January when I started to do research for an upgrade.

	10-07-2003 05:51									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov geForce is considered all that in Israel. Why would you recommend Radeon? And by which manufacturer? My dad seems to think it's a big difference. (he works as an R&D engineer in a high tech company, and his office neighbour is the system and admin who's also responsible for the hardware) My dad is clueless though as to the effects of different 2D and 3D thingies

hi ,

go for geforce , its also a question about warranty and all , ....

manuf , , check some internet sites in Israel , stumbled a couple weeks ago on a site that resells items from insurance fraud and such , with limited warranty , but good , should be in the "index"

have a nice morning

	10-07-2003 06:07									#22
	Inflate your Upload Space

Kass - can you suggest a good site to start learning?


Panag - what's the "index" ?

	10-07-2003 06:30									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov Kass - can you suggest a good site to start learning?

You're already there.

Just go to the manufacturer sites then read and compare the different models, when you come across a feature that you do not know, ask apolyton. That's what I always do.

	10-07-2003 06:38									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: can you suggest a good site to start learning?

Mostly I've been reading what the users and buyers think, i.e. computer hardware related forums (Finnish ones mostly), but those always require a certain filter since there are "ATi Fanatics" and "NVidiots" and whoever who are far from objective. A good and pretty neutral source would be http://www.tomshardware.com .

Here for instance are the cards mentioned here in a test on high-end machines. The Ti 4200 is quite decent, and the R9100 isn't too shoddy either considering the difference in price. Tests aren't the set word of god though and you will find someone able to dispute any results, whether they have a point or not is tough to decide if you don't know much about the fundamentals (like me). This is why I try to read lots of opinions and strike a balance between them.

	10-07-2003 07:14									#25
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I've had a number of ATI cards. In my experience, ATIs cards tend to be pretty good, but their drivers and software usually leaves a lot to be desired (although they have gotten better, IMO).

	10-07-2003 10:55									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Are any of the ATI cards DirectX 9 ones?

	10-07-2003 11:03									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns A good rule of thumb is to aviod any graphics cards with MX in their name.

What's wrong with MX cards? I've got a Geforce 2 MX, I've had it for 2 years, not one problem from it at all. Come to think of it, that's the only piece of hardware I have had that has actually never caused a problem.

	10-07-2003 11:41									#28
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UR,

nope.

Siro,

I suggest that you buy a very cheap graphics accelerator right now and buy a better one later on with the new system.

	10-07-2003 12:01									#29
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the geforce 2 mx was good

all the other mx's are crap

the ati's are the top of the line right now (and the best are direct x 9 cards)

Jon Miller

	10-07-2003 14:53									#30
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MX is generally an order of magnitude below its equivalent siblings.