10-07-2003 21:11									#31
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this is the same thabo mbeki who doesn't believe HIV causes AIDS right...?

	10-07-2003 21:16									#32
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quote: Originally posted by C0ckney this is the same thabo mbeki who doesn't believe HIV causes AIDS right...?

Do you know that William Shockley, the Nobel Prize Laureate, believed that blacks are dumber than whites?

	10-07-2003 21:17									#33
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quote: Originally posted by C0ckney this is the same thabo mbeki who doesn't believe HIV causes AIDS right...?

Yep, but whoever wrote the op/ed for him did an interesting job.

	10-07-2003 21:19									#34
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The point is that the market can't use Africa or it would be. The market has been tried repeatedly and failed repeatedly. True, they need better leadership, but if the world really showed that they were making the necessary effort to help Africa that leadership would come. There is just too much despair in Africa.

	10-07-2003 21:20									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman Expecting Third World villagers to have low birth rates is like expecting Westerners to forgo economic growth. Not going to happen.

The Germans, Scandinavians, and other progressive Euro-countries have been forgoing economic growth for years. The funny part is they can't figure out why.

	10-07-2003 21:25									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious The point is that the market can't use Africa or it would be. The market has been tried repeatedly and failed repeatedly. True, they need better leadership, but if the world really showed that they were making the necessary effort to help Africa that leadership would come. There is just too much despair in Africa.

The market hasn't failed. What's happened is that wars, kleptocrates, and lawlessness has chased away anyone who wants to invest in most African countries. Go there and see first hand then come back and tell us what you saw.

BTW Botswana, South Africa, Ghana, and the souther part of Nigeria have been growing steadally. Is it any wonder that with democracy, good governence, and the rule of law their economies picked up?

	10-07-2003 21:27									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The Germans, Scandinavians, and other progressive Euro-countries have been forgoing economic growth for years. The funny part is they can't figure out why.

They have unbankable citizens there too. There is no capacity in the world economy to employ all the resources. Since the employment cost is highest there they suffer from unemployment. If they lower their employment cost that unemployment will show up somewhere else.

	10-07-2003 21:30									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The market hasn't failed. What's happened is that wars, kleptocrates, and lawlessness has chased away anyone who wants to invest in most African countries. Go there and see first hand then come back and tell us what you saw. BTW Botswana, South Africa, Ghana, and the souther part of Nigeria have been growing steadally. Is it any wonder that with democracy, good governence, and the rule of law their economies picked up?

I've been to Africa. The problems that Africa suffers from are more the result of capitalism and colonialism than anything else. Of course better macro-conditions are going to help the economies, but you aren't going to see any miracles.

	10-07-2003 21:31									#39
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Read the Book "The Africans" to get a good feel about what it's like to live in sub-saharan Africa, what the governments are like, what the people think, what the level of education and development is. It was written by a BBC reporter who lived in Africa for 25 years and who traveled in every country in Africa. He knows what he's talking about.

Pay special attention to how the communist governments of Tanzania, Ethiopia, and others so totally and royally screwed their countries over.

	10-07-2003 21:32									#40
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Yup, yup

The leadership needs to come first to show desire for the market in order for the market to be sustained in areas flooded with "unbankable" people.

I think another good example is The Ivory Coast. The French hand in the affairs allowed for stability, but when they removed it there was war until a suitable leader arose, then he died, and war ensued again destroying the market...

Once leadership is developed, and the market has been established, one must then focus on education and population control (as someone pointed out) to ensure continuing suitable leadership as well as a managable market.

Even with a sound leader a country that sees a market increase to quickly will result in war, as well as a country that sees it increase too slowly. It is a delicate balance between population, education, and money. Yet, IMO, it is the leadership first, the money second, the education third, and the population fourth...

Just my 2 cents...

	10-07-2003 21:34									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Read the Book "The Africans" to get a good feel about what it's like to live in sub-saharan Africa, what the governments are like, what the people think, what the level of education and development is. It was written by a BBC reporter who lived in Africa for 25 years and who traveled in every country in Africa. He knows what he's talking about. Pay special attention to how the communist governments of Tanzania, Ethiopia, and others so totally and royally screwed their countries over.

What does that have to do with anything? I'm not saying that Africa can do it alone. I'm saying that they need a lot of help, and not just access to western markets.

	10-07-2003 21:38									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Yup, yup The leadership needs to come first to show desire for the market in order for the market to be sustained in areas flooded with "unbankable" people. I think another good example is The Ivory Coast. The French hand in the affairs allowed for stability, but when they removed it there was war until a suitable leader arose, then he died, and war ensued again destroying the market... Once leadership is developed, and the market has been established, one must then focus on education and population control (as someone pointed out) to ensure continuing suitable leadership as well as a managable market. Even with a sound leader a country that sees a market increase to quickly will result in war, as well as a country that sees it increase too slowly. It is a delicate balance between population, education, and money. Yet, IMO, it is the leadership first, the money second, the education third, and the population fourth... Just my 2 cents...

You're saying that in order to exploit Africa it is necessary for them to have good leadership. I agree, but if they are just given aid then that leadership can be created. First we have to create a condition for that leadership to be created and create some order and civility.

	10-07-2003 21:40									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious The problems that Africa suffers from are more the result of capitalism and colonialism than anything else.

Very little of Africa's current problems have to do with colonialism. The only one which does is the border issue but you must admite that even this issue has been used as a crutch by dictators to explain away their own personal mismanagement.

As for Africa suffering from capitalism; care to give any examples? I can think of Tanzania's nationalization of the agricultural sector resulted in the entire sector going belly up and Zimbabwe's land redistribution scheme resulting in a 90% reduction in farm output or a host of other ways socialism has failed Africa.

Like I said earlier so many countries in Africa don't benifet from trade 1) because their one product (agriculture) doesn't have access to foreign markets and most compete against subsidized food from rich countries, and 2) The governments are kleptocrates who steal everything which isn't nailed down.

	10-07-2003 21:47									#44
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quote: they are just given aid then that leadership can be created. First we have to create a condition for that leadership to be created and create some order and civility.

I disagree. If aide is given to create a leader, that leader will not be strong as he/she will be viewed as a product of foreign policy, and not out of national interest. The leader must come first, kind of.

I think this whole issue is a conundrum...

Oerdin: Africa has a lot to offer besides Ag. Gemstones are huge, but are also outlawed by most countries that they would otherwise trade with...

	10-07-2003 21:48									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Very little of Africa's current problems have to do with colonialism. The only one which does is the border issue but you must admite that even this issue has been used as a crutch by dictators to explain away their own personal mismanagement.

If Africa would have recieved aid and friendship instead of exploitation during the colonial period things would have been much better. For whatever reason colonialism has had a much worse effect in Africa than it has in other parts of the world. It tends to linger on there. Instead of foreigners exploiting Africans though, now it is Africans who are exploiting Africans.

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin As for Africa suffering from capitalism; care to give any examples?

Africa is part of the global capitalist system. They are the losers of the losers. That's how they suffer from capitalism. It's as simple as that. I'm not claiming that nationalising industries there can solve their problems, but that a better world system would.

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Like I said earlier so many countries in Africa don't benifet from trade 1) because their one product (agriculture) doesn't have access to foreign markets and most compete against subsidized food from rich countries, and 2) The governments are kleptocrates who steal everything which isn't nailed down.

That's true, but that's real capitalism as it exists and will always exist. That's competition for resources, not cooperation.

	10-07-2003 21:50									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Japher I disagree. If aide is given to create a leader, that leader will not be strong as he/she will be viewed as a product of foreign policy, and not out of national interest. The leader must come first, kind of.

I don't think Africans could care less about foreign influence. I think they really care about their economic conditions. They are certainly willing to have some foreign influence if it would mean less suffering.

	10-07-2003 21:51									#47
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Subsidizing production is hardly free market capitalism. In fact subsidies destort the market and thus hinder the free market.

	10-07-2003 21:54									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Subsidizing production is hardly free market capitalism. In fact subsidies destort the market and thus hinder the free market.

I don't believe that distortion matters, because the free market doesn't work the way you think it does, but it really doesn't matter because subsidies have always been a part of capitalism and always will. Those who have the resources to subsidize their products and create better economies of scale will do so. That's the way capitalism works.

	10-07-2003 22:07									#49
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Actually, I remember reading or hearing that this whole "birth rate" thing is complete codswallop.

I'll see if I can find the article.

	10-07-2003 22:27									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger So why is it that, in the last 20 years, in the United States, the rich have been getting richer while the poor have been getting poorer? BTW, do you think Milken and Kravis deserve all their $?

Actually, I think Milken should be spending the rest of his life getting his ass pumped by Bubba at the Federal Prison in Marion. But that's just my view of extensive financial crimes which affect market credibility.

	10-07-2003 22:28									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I don't believe that distortion matters, because the free market doesn't work the way you think it does, but it really doesn't matter because subsidies have always been a part of capitalism and always will. Those who have the resources to subsidize their products and create better economies of scale will do so. That's the way capitalism works.

You can't subsidize your own products.

	10-07-2003 22:35									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer MtG: improve infrastructure to make businesses more profitable, establish businesses which will be taxed (and this tax will pay for education to allow citizens to have better skills) and will provide jobs for the citizens some of whom may establish businesses themselves and all that...

You're thinking in a first world model.

In most of Africa (in terms of population), there is virtually no infrastructure. Abysmal health care, unsafe local water supplies, no sanitary waste disposal, no electricity, etc. Businesses are extremely hard to "make profitable" when you have a lack of basic support services, almost everything is imported, employees are unproductive when they're their, and they show up on "African time" The last thing you want to do with a fledgling profitable business is tax the hell out of it, because you're extracting capital needed for growth. You can't extract enough taxes to maintain what pathetic infrastructure you have, let alone to expand basic public services.

quote: you open up a factory in a city and you now have several hundred employed workers who need housing, food, and consumer products so several businesses open up to provide these goods and services and the workers of these in turn require more goods and so on... same concept can be applied to the third world

Go there and try it.

	10-07-2003 22:38									#53
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quote: China?

Speer: China's a special case. The one-child policy was backed up by better than average female literacy, and the state did provide in old age, at least better than most other poor countries. The one-child policy was also not a complete success, the average number of children per couple only intermittantly dropped below two. On the other hand, even this is far, far better than the large families in places like Nigeria and Bangladesh.

	10-07-2003 23:19									#54
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Actually, I think Milken should be spending the rest of his life getting his ass pumped by Bubba at the Federal Prison in Marion. But that's just my view of extensive financial crimes which affect market credibility.

Milken is a scapegoat. Guilty, but not nearly as guilty as Boesky. But who knows Boesky?

	10-07-2003 23:27									#55
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I concur with Oerdin. You need stability first, then set up a market. Markets are notoriously ineffective when the country is unstable.

	10-07-2003 23:32									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Saras Milken is a scapegoat. Guilty, but not nearly as guilty as Boesky. But who knows Boesky?

Milken was more a promoter of the whole phenomenon. But I'd happily put Boesky in the same cell block. All of 'em. White collar market crimes have a far bigger impact than knocking off banks, etc., so I'm all in favor of slamming those precious yuppies with hard time.

	10-07-2003 23:38									#57
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I beg to differ. Milken was a promoter of junk bonds, in itself an asset class of higher risk, but also higher return. The fact that this instrument was used for many hostile raids put him in a position of knowing a lot of inside info. He didn't actively pursue insider trading opportunities. Boesky did.

	10-07-2003 23:52									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I concur with Oerdin. You need stability first, then set up a market. Markets are notoriously ineffective when the country is unstable.

Which is why I actually (hard core free market type that I am) advocate socialism in the initial stage of a third world country's economic development.

To achieve stability, you have to reduce a majority of the basic sources of discontent that can motivate people to support one or another destabilizing force. There's little to no initial market incentive to providing basic food supply stabilization (quantity and quality), basic water and waste disposal, transport, health and education.

Elimination (or at least reduction to a tolerable level) of corruption and establishing a rule of law are also essential precursors to functioning markets.

	10-07-2003 23:55									#59
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quote: Which is why I actually (hard core free market type that I am) advocate socialism in the initial stage of a third world country's economic development.

(Unfortunetly ) I agree with you. Go strong national government and gradually ease restrictions and ease in the market. Go slow, so the transition is smooth.

Of course the problem is that once a people get a free entitlement they don't want to go back, even if the market might provide it better.

	11-07-2003 00:30									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Saras I beg to differ. Milken was a promoter of junk bonds, in itself an asset class of higher risk, but also higher return. The fact that this instrument was used for many hostile raids put him in a position of knowing a lot of inside info. He didn't actively pursue insider trading opportunities. Boesky did.

Yes, but Milken's promotion of junk bonds was done with the full knowledge that (a) they weren't being used in a sound manner, and that the overpromotion of high risk debt undermined the stability of the market, and (b) the use of the high leverage / high interest combination for M&A transactions made it impossible to effectively absorb those M&A's, so the only parties who profited were those who speculated on the transactions themselves, not the bondholders or the majority of the companies who engaged in the high-risk transactions. Besides, Milken didn't have to engage in insider trading - simply promoting a financing mechanism that gave insider traders so many opportunities for illicit gains was lucrative enough for Milken.