10-07-2003 12:00									#1
	CDG City Investigation Suffering from ads?

I'm surprised this thread hasn't been put up yet...

The idea of investigating a CDG city (Cuido, the closest) to see what CDG might be up to came up in chat a few days ago, and since then we've dropped research to save up some gold to do it (12 gold).

So this poll asks whether we should use that saved gold on the investigation or spit it back up by turning research to 90 or 100 for a few turns.

3 days.

	10-07-2003 12:12									#2
	Got spare money?

I say no...
Why would we want to spend the gold to do that?

To see if their war with GCA is a ruse and are instead planning to attack us?

How does investigating the city tell us that? Even if they're planning on attacking us, chances are they won't have their units inside that city. They could be en route from the south. They could be on the move already. The likelihood of an actual invasion force being stationed in that city (assuming they are going to attack) is very slim.

Second, the chances of a ruse at all are even slimmer. They've captured/razed a GCA city and taken a GCA Worker. It's obvious the war itself isn't fake. And why/how would CDG move a sizable portion of its force to attack us while remaining at war with GCA? They've shown the intention of destroying GCA. They cannot do that by attacking both of us at the same time...

To see if they're actually researching?

The last techs they came through with just on time as they said they would. And that was before the war with GCA, when they could have been saving up gold for upgrade. They would not save up gold after the war has begun. Their GNP is about 10 above our own. They can research faster than us. Even if they aren't researching, who cares? They can get the tech fast enough, and the chances of them still having Warriors lying around is low since they linked all of their cities up to iron very quickly.

To see if they're building a Temple (possible Karina culture flip)?

Yeah, they're going to build a Temple. It's a 60 shield improvement while they're at war. The max they could get is 2 SPT out of that city, and that's only with a GA. 2 SPT for 20 turns and 1 SPT for 20 more is 40 turns to build a Temple. They won't even finish it before we capture the city. And come on, this is CDG we're talking about... a Temple?

To see if they're building Walls?

While not impossible, very very unlikely. They're in a war right now and will probably want all the units they have. While Walls might slow us down (taking off 1 more HP off of our first Swordsman...), it's not worth 12 gold to find out if they're building Walls NOW, 30 turns before we attack.

To see if they're building an Immortal?

There is a 99% chance of this. We don't need to spend 12 gold to figure this out. They're not building a Settler. They're not building a Worker. If they're building a Temple they're idiots. If we see Walls pop up in 10 turns I'll eat my mousepad. What else does that leave? Knowing 100% sure they're building an Immortal there tells us squat.

So no, I don't think we should spend the money to investigate the city.

	10-07-2003 12:45									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I had intended to vote yes on this. But seeing Trips reasons against, I vote no simply because Trip is right.

While it is 'cheap' to do so, we gain nothing by doing it.

	10-07-2003 14:03									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I was the one arguing that we shouldn't waste our money on this in the chat. Seeing as I haven't changed my mind, I voted no

	10-07-2003 14:09									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Someone in favour of this: please provide good arguments.

	10-07-2003 15:36									#6
	Inflate your Upload Space

I was rethinking Trips argument about how many shields per turn those two cities can make. In a GA I think they can produce 4, but at the distance from Capitol, they drop to 3. 3spt would make a 20 turn Temple possible. Plus those two cities are due to grow soon. By looking at perevious saves it looks like Alcohol will grow in 2 turns and Possumopolis in 6 turns, increasing the shield output then to either 4 or 5 spt with 1 or 2 spt wasted. Each city can work two hill tiles in addition to their center tile.

That would give them a temple a lot sooner. Lets say that they started on a temple when those cites were built, A temple would be pretty close to being finished in Alcohol, maybe like 4-5 turns from now. If they built a Spear there first then they are about 15-16 turns from a temple if they went for the temple after a spear.

The question is: What would we do if we saw that they would have a Temple finished before we would attack?

Would we poprush our temple then? We'd have to add in workers to Karina in order to do it.

	10-07-2003 15:59									#7
	Get a bigger avatar today!

If we're going to attack a city that has culture, we won't auto-raze it. For this purpose, it might be worth knowing which cities have temples.

	10-07-2003 16:10									#8
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

This will give us an idea as to what is going on in that city. Pre-war intelligence can tell us what we are up against in the way of possible resistance.

I say yes

E_T

	10-07-2003 16:24									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

At the moment there is a chance of Karina flipping of less than 1 in 250. With a Temple it would take ages for this chance to increase to any remotely dangerous level (say 1 in 100) according to the flip formula I have.

I have never seen much point in investigating the city, and feel that even if they conjured an army out of nowhere, we would be able to take it with the precautions we have now.

	10-07-2003 18:56									#10
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I decided to vote no after reading MrWhereItsAt and Trip's arguments. I think we should rediscuss this every 10 or so turns though between now and the war. Its not worth it now, but likely will be closer to the action.

	10-07-2003 21:11									#11
	Support Apolyton

I adore intelligence information like this as it tends to be worth it's weight in gold, and given our brilliant analysis and sim making, it could give us an idea of what to expect and how to adjust our sims to more accurately predict CDG's builds and mindset.

However, it may not be wise to do it now ... perhaps in 10-20 turns when we're getting near the time of our attack.

--Togas

	10-07-2003 23:50									#12
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Togas I adore intelligence information like this as it tends to be worth it's weight in gold, and given our brilliant analysis and sim making, it could give us an idea of what to expect and how to adjust our sims to more accurately predict CDG's builds and mindset. However, it may not be wise to do it now ... perhaps in 10-20 turns when we're getting near the time of our attack. --Togas

I agree completely.

The plan is to investigate this city (and others) later on anyways, so why are we spending the money to do it now?

	11-07-2003 02:53									#13
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Trip I agree completely. The plan is to investigate this city (and others) later on anyways, so why are we spending the money to do it now?

Because they'll always be people with a large hole burning in their pockets when the amount of money in the bank is above zero

	11-07-2003 03:19									#14
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Because I'd like to see Trip eat his mouse pad, and I'm impatient.

But seriously, I think the price is very cheap, and it would have been useful now for our planning and discussions. We would be discussing facts, and not conjecture, which I view to be more productive. However, it is not a huge issue. E_T has suggested this before, and I felt it time to support him in his quest for intelligence. I had hoped he would open this up, and make his case before such a strong case was made against it. Ce la vie.

	11-07-2003 03:23									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I support this idea, as a one-time thing, since it is so cheap.

	11-07-2003 04:08									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I have been way too busy to open this poll and make a heart renching plead....

I do agree that we should approch this again in, say 10 turns, too

E_T

	11-07-2003 05:14									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Yes 10 turns from now would be better, we'd have a firm hold of the situation based upon whtawe see then as opposed to seeing now and waiting 20+ turns to do it again. I willdefinatel support looking inot the two border cities and their Capitol in the truns leading to the strike against them.

	11-07-2003 05:34									#18
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Will it still cost 12 golds to view Alcohol in 10 turns time ? Is the price going to increase if the city has more culture or more population ?

I noticed the cost of viewing a city changes overtime. But i have never analysed what really causes the change. Does anybody know ?

Edited - i got the price wrong in the first post.

	11-07-2003 05:47									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Very good question. I will test tonight and see.

	11-07-2003 05:49									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I can't believe nobody thought of this yet, but could we nail down a formula for what effects the cost of investigating?

Ohhhhh, large furry scary one... where are you?

	11-07-2003 05:59									#21
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hmmmm factor's which *might* be involved that I can think of to check:

1) Distance from capital/forbidden palace
2) Culture
3) Improvements? Such as courthouse, etc.
4) Corruption?
5) City Size
6) Time since founding? (I Highly doubt this)
7) Government of their civ vs ours: Very probable IMO
8) Size of their treasury?
9) Garrison in the city? Probally no effect IMO....could be abused if it is a factor and we know the formula :P
10) Existance of embassies: Doubt it but maybe

I can't think of much else which might make sense to factor in. My guess though is that its a simple function based on population/culture/distance/governments.


Oh and if its a choice to investigate the border cities or the capital, i'd prolly vote capital..... If we can do it all then I say about 5-10 turns before the action is most critical.

	11-07-2003 18:32									#22
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Ohhhhh, large furry scary one... where are you?

* BigFurryMonster hides in his bucket...

	11-07-2003 19:45									#23
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by wervdon Hmmmm factor's which *might* be involved that I can think of to check: 10) Existance of embassies: Doubt it but maybe

An embassy with the target civ is a prerequisite for investigating its cities, so even if the existence of an embassy affected the cost of the investigation, it's effect would be always present.

	11-07-2003 20:10									#24
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

*bonk self*

Your right, I actually was thinking about them having an embassy with us and not us with them, but I forgot that its one in the same with civ3 ...... I haven't played enough multiplayer and I ussually end up establishing the embassies myself in single player so I guess I just forgot that you can't have an embassy with them and them not with you :P

	11-07-2003 20:47									#25
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

It appeared to me that city size was the most important factor in how much it costs to investigate cities.

There's no need to investigate to determine if a city would auto raze. If size 2+ or if there's been cultural expansion, it won't.

	14-07-2003 01:23									#26
	Get a bigger avatar today!

What about a positive cultural city score (without expansion yet) ?