10-07-2003 21:46									#1
	Cruise Missiles Suck Remove this text

Is it just me, or do cruise missiles suck in this game? They were really useful in Civ 2, but they just plain stink in Civ III. They have pathetic range, and they hardly do enough damage to be as useful as say, planes. If they had longer range that would make me want to use them. Maybe about 4 more bombarding power as well. I just use radar artillery, which is the same as cruise missiles, except re-usable. There needs to be something to make using cruise missiles worth the bother of building them!

	10-07-2003 22:38									#2
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I know that there are some mistakes in the manual, but I'm looking at it right now and am seeing that cruise missiles and radar artillery are not the same.
Cruise Missiles have a B/R/F (Bombard/Range/Rate of Fire) of 20/3/5, while a Radar Artillery's B/R/F is 16/2/4.

I agree that Cruise Missiles aren't that useful though. However, I also think that Radar Artillery are useless. By the time you have these units, you have tanks or modern armor (and PLANES). I usually just let the planes do the bombing, rather than CMs and RAs. While they have less bombardment strength, their range is far more superior. Your offensive doesn't have to slow down to wait for the CMs and RAs with 1 movement point.

So, I think you're right about Cruise Missles being useless. (Perhaps they could be more useful if they could bombard from a naval unit.) But, I also think that Radar Artillery are useless, and planes can do this job better.

	10-07-2003 23:54									#3
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Sorry to be noobish, but what does rate of fire do anyway? I've always wondered...

	11-07-2003 00:02									#4
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RoF are the number of "shots" a bombard units gets per bombard.

A unit with a RoF of 1 can only deal 1hp of damage per attack. It either hits, or it misses.

A unit with a RoF of 2, however, can deal 0-2 hp of damage. It can miss twice, hit once & miss once, or hit twice.

-Arrian

	11-07-2003 00:05									#5
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Oh! It seems like i would've noticed something like that. Thanks. Now i realize that the F15 is quite a bit better than the jet fighter (higher rate of fire).

	11-07-2003 00:47									#6
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While it's true that cruise missiles in Civ II are better, there's no other unit that can destroy upon bombarding (unless you make the edits). I usually don't use cruise missiles, but I have used them and use them much more often than planes to attack cities. I hardly build bombers at all since I hate to destroy land improvements for cities that will be mine in a couple of turns anyway. Once I have MAs (modern armor) though, artillery of all sorts isn't very important anymore till the AI get's his MI (Mech Infantry).

Oh, and if I remember correctly, cruise missiles attach units and ignore improvements? I forget if this is true, but if so, it will save you the trouble of building many of the non-cultural improvements once you take the city, though you'll still have the foreign pop to deal with.

	11-07-2003 03:14									#7
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Never played Civ II so I can't speak to that. But since cruise missiles always do at least some damage, and often a lot of damage, but never miss out right, I find them useful for chasing away enemy naval units bombarding my coastal improvements. And by the time they become available on the tech tree, production in my many cities is so high, they can be built quickly in huge numbers and moved by railroad right to the problem coast.

	11-07-2003 03:18									#8
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The best thing about cruise missles is the animation. I like the misscle coming down and blowing the enemy apart. Other than that it's use is limited.

Some Good uses:
On coastal defense, they have a good use. If a transport get's through your Navy, it's nice to sink the entire army at once.

Missiles are relatively cheap. In a productive city, you can spit them out every 1 or 2 turns.

You can load missiles on a transport (I think this bug is still active). The "enter transport" arrow will NOT appear on the order screen. But if you position the transport just off the shore and enter directly...the missile will enter the transport. So loading a transport with a bunch of missiles and attacking a coastal city can be very nice (although I've never actually used the strategy).

	11-07-2003 04:05									#9
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I just thought of a potentially very good use for cruise missiles. When an enemy battleship or destroyer comes to bombard your coast, and assuming it's close enough, knock it down to one hit point with artillery and then attack with a cruise missile. That should be practically a guaranteed kill (rate of fire 5 against one hit point), and while I don't have the costs in front of me, I'm sure the cruise missile would be a whole lot cheaper than the unit it kills.

Of course if you have enough of your own ships on hand to patrol your coast, you can use them to kill off the last hit point. But given the relatively limited amount of area each ship can cover, it can take quite a few ships to defend a continent. In contrast, cruise missiles on rails can attack anywhere on the continent or near its shores, so it doesn't take a lot of them to cover a lot of coast.

This idea only just occurred to me, so I haven't tested it yet. Indeed, I've never even built a cruise missile myself, although I did capture a very small number of them in one game. But it seems like an idea that could be interesting to try.

Nathan

	11-07-2003 04:25									#10
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That is the only good use for Cruise Missiles...

To finish off units which you've already weakened via other forms of bombardment.

	11-07-2003 04:42									#11
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Stock Cruise Missiles have a B/R/RoF of 16/2/3 (not 20/3/5). (Edit: Cost 60 shields).

Cruise Missiles are VERY handy against coastal naval units when you don't have a navy nearby.

Cruise Missiles are also excellent against ground units in cities when you want to take the city without destroying its improvements. CMs target only the units, not city improvements or population. If you want the city intact, it is better to use CMs than losing assault units (important to a Republic/Democracy for war weariness purposes).

Cruise Missiles are a special-purpose unit and complement smart weapon. It's good to have 6-12 available for when you want them.

	11-07-2003 06:29									#12
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I have not used them much, but is it not hard to get them from location to another? I seem to recall capturing a few and trying to sheperd them along the road to a friendly city.

	11-07-2003 06:32									#13
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay I just thought of a potentially very good use for cruise missiles. When an enemy battleship or destroyer comes to bombard your coast, and assuming it's close enough, knock it down to one hit point with artillery and then attack with a cruise missile. That should be practically a guaranteed kill (rate of fire 5 against one hit point), and while I don't have the costs in front of me, I'm sure the cruise missile would be a whole lot cheaper than the unit it kills. Of course if you have enough of your own ships on hand to patrol your coast, you can use them to kill off the last hit point. But given the relatively limited amount of area each ship can cover, it can take quite a few ships to defend a continent. In contrast, cruise missiles on rails can attack anywhere on the continent or near its shores, so it doesn't take a lot of them to cover a lot of coast. This idea only just occurred to me, so I haven't tested it yet. Indeed, I've never even built a cruise missile myself, although I did capture a very small number of them in one game. But it seems like an idea that could be interesting to try. Nathan

I've done this quite a bit... a little differently though, as I've played more late games with more recent patches, and the AI is a bee-yatch about using ships to bombard and then retreat beyond Arty fire. So I bombard with defensive picket ships and home security Bombers, and then take'em out with CMs.

I quite disagree with the initial premise... CMs rock the house.

Oh, and if you can find it, in Vel's Alamo scenario, CMs are critical for survival (AI 4xMA Armies!!).

	11-07-2003 08:00									#14
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I have not used them much, but is it not hard to get them from location to another? I seem to recall capturing a few and trying to sheperd them along the road to a friendly city.

No harder than artillery....

Against enemy cities, their use comes in when you decide that it's going to be a hard nut to crack (i.e., a metro on a hill, stacked with Mech Inf, and you don't want to use nukes). For such a target, you probably want to bring a dozen or so. Remember, while a Cruise Missile is a one shot deal, it has 1.5 times the value of Radar Artillery, and twice the value of Artillery or Bombers. And it's a killer!

An excellent investment of those low-production (10-30 shield) cities.

	11-07-2003 11:34									#15
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And with enough CMs, you can entirely wipe out the defense in a city and stroll in using a warrior!

	11-07-2003 11:50									#16
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I guess they are not worthless as I just captured one and a frigate was near one of my conquered cities with only 1 hp left. I was able to use the rails to get it over to a point where it could take out the ship.

	11-07-2003 13:28									#17
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Of course if you have enough of your own ships on hand to patrol your coast, you can use them to kill off the last hit point. But given the relatively limited amount of area each ship can cover, it can take quite a few ships to defend a continent. In contrast, cruise missiles on rails can attack anywhere on the continent or near its shores, so it doesn't take a lot of them to cover a lot of coast. This idea only just occurred to me, so I haven't tested it yet. Indeed, I've never even built a cruise missile myself, although I did capture a very small number of them in one game. But it seems like an idea that could be interesting to try. Nathan

I tried it in a game some months ago and it works very well. I used to attack incoming ships with cruises missiles. Afterwards, either they would steam back and fall prey to some of my subs (even a sub can kill a 1-HP battleship) or still approach my coast. Then I would dart out a destroyer from one of my harbors, destroy the ship and go in again. (Explanation: huge map, a very long and thin island, all cities were on the sea, C-T-T-C setting).
This also works with bombers, but it's less 'flashy'.

	11-07-2003 13:46									#18
	Remove this text

I rarely use CMs. I mostly use Aircraft for Baywatching and hurting the enemy. Sometimes I load 4 "Stuka"-s into a Carrier and send them (with the company of 4-5 guarding units like Battleship or Destroyer) somewhere near to the enemy coast. Then wait. If once this civ suddenly declares war on you, you can hurt him badly and stadily with bombarding of it's strategic important tiles....

In late games I have also no need for CMs. I have usually enough Tanks or MA. It is very rare to have such an advanced AI, so I don't need to fine-tune my military strategy to that level. Simply, build 20 Tanks and take him out (and get some GL in the meantime).

Maybe if the CM would have much bigger effect. Like ICBMs.

Actually the CMs has much longer ranges in real life, than in the game! The CM should be in civ3 like ICBMs but without a nuclear head. Yes, but what should we do with the Nukes.... Hmmmm...

	11-07-2003 19:32									#19
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I do find the range of the CM disappointing. They really should be extended 1 more square.

	11-07-2003 20:15									#20
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I have not used them much, but is it not hard to get them from location to another? I seem to recall capturing a few and trying to sheperd them along the road to a friendly city.

Depends on how you use them. As I use them against naval annoyances and various land based incursions into my territory - in the era of fully railroaded territories, defensive movement is not an issue. Offensively, I find it hard to go with anything else but the more mobile MA. But as I've said elsewhere, my strategy this late in the game is inelegant and brutish. Build as much MA as I my considerable production can handle, switch to communism, and smash my way through enemy territory.

	11-07-2003 22:41									#21
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I agree with Jaybe about using them offensively on cities that are a tough nut to crack, especially in a situation where there was a lot to be gained by sweeping through the enemy's position quickly, but your offensive force is running a little thin. If you take out the tough defenders with CMs, your armor doesnt have to sit and recover for as long, putting more blitz in your krieg.

Once again, having workers railroad territory as you capture it greatly facilitates this technique.

GarP2

	24-07-2003 07:45									#22
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I usually don't go to war in ages with cruise missiles available to me but I know that they are supposed to be transportable in the next expansion for Civ3.

That will be handy now, loading them up on cruise missile ships/subs/bombers... whatever the transport device is and getting a slew of them in close to the enemy position. I think that will certainly enhance the usefullness of these weapons.

	24-07-2003 08:17									#23
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At the risk of becoming the patron saint for unwanted units, I've grown to like CM's. They can be instrumental in what Patton called the one tactical principle that is not subject to change: to use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time.

Instead of bringing a flotilla up to meet that battleship bombarding your coast and finally getting there three turns from now, send two CM's at it. Chances are good that your 120 shields worth of missiles will sink the enemy's 200 shield battleship, and sink it this turn. Better yet hit it once with RA or planes, get it down to 2 or 3 HP, then finish it off with the CM. Enemy just drop off a stack on your beaches and your frontline guys are tied down? CM's will decimate them before they get a chance to attack. A big key here is that the AI produces so many regular units. With a rate of fire of 3, a lucky CM can singlehandedly wipe out a regular MI fortified in the mountains. Even on veteran units, it can leave it at one HP. Radar tower just across the front line? Launch a CM at it and it's an easy roll for your attackers.

Of course, my use of CM's is reliant on the fact that normally, by the time I have them, every tile in my borders is railroaded, along with coastal tiles that may be right outside my "legal" borders. I'm loathe to use them anywhere I have to lose a turn to get them in, which means I don't use them offensively much at all.

Making them transportable will be very nice, as that's my one gripe... this late in the game I should have my entire continent subdued, so they're not very useful in my overseas war. I have to wonder if they'll be able to bombard from the transport. Realistically, they should, but who knows. If so, my mouth is already watering at the damage an amphibious assault force of one ship full of CM's, one full of Marines and one with a Marine Army and three more CM's could do.

Another nice aspect is their effect on my civ's military production capacity. By the time my last great war rolls around, I usually have about 10 or so cities producing 120+ spt, with one dedicated to building armies. IOW, about 9 or so cities that can spit out an MA/RA every turn, or Stealth Bomber every other turn. I then usually have 10-20 producing 100-120 spt, able to spit out a Marine/Para/Heli/Jet and in some cases MI each turn. This allows me to constantly a) keep my divisions at or near full strength and b) constantly assess during a campaign where the holes in my standing army are and fill them ASAP. Obviously, I've also got dozens of cities producing 60-100 spt that only get pressed into the above reinforcement mode if absolutely needed, with the drawback of having to wait an extra turn to get the force out to the front. CM's are perfect for this. Use them freely this turn, then go to the advisor screen and replenish what you used, or look forward a turn, build them the turn you use them and never pay the upkeep. All of a sudden, I've got 40 otherwise idle cities directly contributing to the war effort.

Btw, a little off topic, but one of my favorite methods for production management in wartime is to set each city that just built a unit to wealth when it asks me what next, then before the end of the turn, assess what I need and go to the advisor, changing all those wealth builds to whatever I need. Makes it really easy to maximize production "efficiency".

	25-07-2003 01:08									#24
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I have yet to make much use of cruise missles, I just usually stick with your run of the mill MA+MI combo.

	25-07-2003 01:26									#25
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It seems to me that over the patches, the AI has grown less fond of parking its ships next to one's shores, which somewhat detracts from the usefulness of the CM - its effectiveness is dependent on the AI presenting juicy targets.

There's rarely much use using it against land units. Anything likely to die from one is likely to die from an Vet Tank or Modern Armour, which, chances are, will survive to kill something else.

But if you're bored, wasting an entire stack of AI armour with only CMs is kind of funny.

	25-07-2003 07:04									#26
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well after reading this thread earlier today er I mean yesterday Ive been having loads of fun with CM, they are great for city bombardment prior to attacking with your Armies. Scored one excellent shot on an enemy transport that was already in the yellow and sunk her with all the troops still on board

Indeed they are slow in enemy territory but no worse than Artillery and building them in those cities that cant spit MA's out every turn gives you a constant supply of the little beauties. Definitely useful for reducing and even sometimes if your lucky killing those MI before you loose your tanks and IMHO well worth the shields and time.

	25-07-2003 07:48									#27
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Apart from the coastal defence factor, I find CMs useful for the initial stage of an offensive war.

Assuming you can reach target cities with them, you can ease the initial damage to your land forces - this means you can go farther, faster. Later on land units will out distance them - but they can help a lot with that first push.

Also, CMs don't need to be built by a city with a barracks - anyone can play, so they are a handy item to build up in those not very productive cities.

Finally, of course, they are a handy disbandment item. If you need a lot of shields in a hurry, CMs are most expendable, unlike other sorts of unit.

	25-07-2003 18:18									#28
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I disagree with those who say the CM range should increase. The first CM's (V1) had to be launched from the French coast to reach London. Today's version of the doodlebug goes further, but is still short range compared to a plane.

We should be able to put them on subs, though.

	25-07-2003 20:35									#29
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hi ,

what is really needed are two types of cruise missiles , ....

we should see ship launched ones in c3c btw , ....

one should have a range of four at a bomb rate of 10

the other one should have a range of 24 and a rate of 20 , ......

have a nice day

	27-07-2003 12:18									#30
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being stationed on the uss kittyhawk in op iraqi freedom....i agree the cruise missle suck,they dont compare anywhere near the real ones.they go over 100 miles not 20 or 30 feet