11-07-2003 02:11									#31
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quote: What do you think the military spends?

So you want the military to buy Iraqi domestic goods, even though the domestic industry is in shambles because of the chaos?

	11-07-2003 02:13									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: What do you think the military spends? So you want the military to buy Iraqi domestic goods, even though the domestic industry is in shambles because of the chaos?

Do dollars magically disappear when they fall into the hands of Iraqis?

	11-07-2003 02:17									#33
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Who ever said they'll fall into the hands of the Iraqis in the first place? With all the industries messed up, they have little, if anything to sell. Much wiser to get what you need overseas instead of waiting for the Iraqis to form domestic industry again, which could take ages because of the chaos.

	11-07-2003 02:31									#34
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The 'chaos' is not sufficient to explain the continued failure to restart the Iraqi infrastructure. What chaos there is is concentrated in the Baghdad area, and even there, it's hardly Somalia or the DRC. The chaos is not some unavoidable thing, like a thunderstorm, it was, at the very least, controllable.

	11-07-2003 02:34									#35
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You're point is that dollars aren't in circulation in Iraq?

On only a limited basis.

What do you think the military spends?

Dinars.

Do you have another point?

Only that there's nothing an Iraqi could do with a dollar he has than buy an imported product or convert it into Dinars, whereby another Iraqi would have that same dollar. Saying that there are too many imports doesn't make any sense at all. What else would they do with their dollars?

	11-07-2003 02:40									#36
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The funny thing is....according to Kidonomic Theory, the Iraqui people should now be at full employment!

Anything that's done to reduce the chaos and improve national stability will be a "productivity enhancer" and according to Kid, the only thing they (productivity enhancers) do is cost jobs....which means that the Iraqis are doomed. As order improves, their productivity will increase, and an increasing numbers of Iraquis will be jobless because of it....I paid attention in Kid's class....

-=Vel=-

	11-07-2003 02:42									#37
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I would like to make very clear that this free market is very beneficial to Iraqis. It might look to them like a rather untidy affair, but there are no shortages of basic goods because of it, and many advanced goods are in plentiful supply. It took several years for the German economy to have no shortages of basic goods after World War II, for comparison purposes with an economy that was heavily managed post-war.

	11-07-2003 02:43									#38
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Only that there's nothing an Iraqi could do with a dollar he has than buy an imported product or convert it into Dinars, whereby another Iraqi would have that same dollar. Saying that there are too many imports doesn't make any sense at all. What else would they do with their dollars?

Who care about what currency they are using. Obviously you didn't want to address the real issue, because that point is irrelevant.

What else would they spend their money on? Domestic goods and services. If there are goods and services that can't be produced in Iraq and they are absolutely needed than export them. Start organizing the Iraqis and giving them information to start more industries and businesses.

	11-07-2003 02:43									#39
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The so called "Free Market" really is a sacred cow to you all, isn't it? Did you try to explain why it is The Answer To Everything to the East Germans during these last 15 years when they were liberated from the evil Commies? You may have a hard time...

	11-07-2003 02:49									#40
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Recovering from decades of communism takes time

	11-07-2003 02:50									#41
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quote: The 'chaos' is not sufficient to explain the continued failure to restart the Iraqi infrastructure. What chaos there is is concentrated in the Baghdad area, and even there, it's hardly Somalia or the DRC.

It is when that chaos also extends to economic paralyzation. There is no stable government in Iraq now, and that prevents buisnesses from running 'as usual'. When there is stability (which comes from bring the country out of chaos) then the government can begin to address the problems of all the people out of work because the bureaucracy has fallen and all the domestic businesses whose production has fallen due to the war and its aftermath.

	11-07-2003 02:52									#42
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as much as i disagree with harsh free-marketeering, isn't it a bit soon to say the free market has failed iraq

	11-07-2003 02:53									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx The funny thing is....according to Kidonomic Theory, the Iraqui people should now be at full employment! Anything that's done to reduce the chaos and improve national stability will be a "productivity enhancer" and according to Kid, the only thing they (productivity enhancers) do is cost jobs....which means that the Iraqis are doomed. As order improves, their productivity will increase, and an increasing numbers of Iraquis will be jobless because of it....I paid attention in Kid's class.... -=Vel=-

Productivity is not important right now. A real plan to create jobs and reach full employment very soon is.

	11-07-2003 02:54									#44
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quote: as much as i disagree with harsh free-marketeering, isn't it a bit soon to say the free market has failed iraq

Especially since Communists are willing to wait forever for their 'revolution' .

	11-07-2003 02:57									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: as much as i disagree with harsh free-marketeering, isn't it a bit soon to say the free market has failed iraq Especially since Communists are willing to wait forever for their 'revolution' .

bleh, capitalism won't survive forever, and it more then likley will end up into an (anarcho)-communist style society, but it won't happen for a very long time (hundreds of years).

the reds are just to damn impatient, reveloutin now!! and all that.

	11-07-2003 03:00									#46
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Who care about what currency they are using.

It's quite important to how you analyze what is happening.

What else would they spend their money on? Domestic goods and services.

You still don't get it dude. They spend their money that is denominated in dollars/Euros/whatever on imported goods. They spend their money that is denominated in Dinars on domestic goods. If they use Dinars to buy a Dollar, and then use it to import goods, then there are no fewer Dinars in circulation.

If the economy were becoming imbalanced because of too many imports, then the value of the Dinar would decline relative to the Dollar until you had balance. But it's not doing that right now. The value of the Dinar has stabilized at 1,300 Dinars/Dollar. It has been at that level since about 3 weeks after Baghdad fell.

As for how that impacts private domestic industry, presumably they are using some of those Dollars going overseas in order to upgrade machinery and the like so that they can compete with imports. The US will be providing some assistance to Iraqi industry (loans, etc.) for this purpose. That's really the answer to the problems of free markets--more free markets!

	11-07-2003 03:00									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: There is chaos in Iraq. In order for the free market to work, you need law and order. So wait... there is chaos in Iraq, so we should close off imports and hope that domestic businesses will sprout up while chaos is around them?

I'm explaining to Kidicious why the free market isn't producing the expected results. If you believe that a free market can truly exist in a country without law and order, well, I don't know what to say. There's a difference between classical liberalism and anarchy, and the core difference is government protection of the structures that make the marketplace work - contract law, property rights, and so on.

You know this, unless law school has eaten away at your brain somehow. I trust this was just a misunderstanding.

	11-07-2003 03:01									#48
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Ahhh...I see. So the only time productivity improvements behave as you claim is when they're dubbed as being "important." And the rest of the time they....have no impact?



-=Vel=-

	11-07-2003 03:02									#49
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quote: it more then likley will end up into an (anarcho)-communist style society, but it won't happen for a very long time (hundreds of years).

I dissagree. Government is getting bigger and more bureaucratic, not smaller. Any Communist system is going to be filled with a massive bureaucracy that employs a vast majority of workers.

	11-07-2003 03:05									#50
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I'm explaining to Kidicious why the free market isn't producing the expected results.

Actually, it is producing the expected results, which are fabulous. Baghdad markets are more active today than they have been for years.

	11-07-2003 03:05									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: it more then likley will end up into an (anarcho)-communist style society, but it won't happen for a very long time (hundreds of years). I dissagree. Government is getting bigger and more bureaucratic, not smaller. Any Communist system is going to be filled with a massive bureaucracy that employs a vast majority of workers.

this is prolly for another topic, but remember, i said eveloution over hundreds of years. And the trend will be more likley in people controling big buissnes with there vote as a share holder. Govt as we know it now is alreading becoming and it oculd be said is subject to the whims of high finance.


but enough! back to iraq!

	11-07-2003 03:07									#52
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quote: I trust this was just a misunderstanding.

I think this was... I assumed that you were agreeing with Kid that we should end imports into Iraq.

	11-07-2003 03:18									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Ahhh...I see. So the only time productivity improvements behave as you claim is when they're dubbed as being "important." And the rest of the time they....have no impact? -=Vel=-

No. You just fail. Big F

	11-07-2003 03:24									#54
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quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man as much as i disagree with harsh free-marketeering, isn't it a bit soon to say the free market has failed iraq

Free market just can't do what they want to do there. There is evidence that it is failing, but really we don't need proof. There is no way that free markets will recover the economy. It isn't really free anyway since we are pumping money into it, but letting that money go straight out the window is just stupid neo-liberal crapola.

	11-07-2003 03:38									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious but letting that money go straight out the window is just stupid neo-liberal crapola.

So they should just pile it up and sit on it?

	11-07-2003 03:43									#56
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat So they should just pile it up and sit on it?

Come on MtG. You are too smart to follow dogma like the rest of these idiots. Use that brain of yours.

	11-07-2003 03:49									#57
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My karma ran over your dogma.

Right now, the Iraqis need (a) money, and (b) a wide variety of products they don't have the immediate capacity to produce, distribute and service.

Textiles and the like will fall back to local manufacture, once acute shortages are resolved.

Machine tools, equipment upgrades, and stuff that will drive domestic industry is the best short term use for foreign currency earnings, after immediate supply of basic consumer needs.

	11-07-2003 04:06									#58
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat My karma ran over your dogma. Right now, the Iraqis need (a) money, and (b) a wide variety of products they don't have the immediate capacity to produce, distribute and service.

So import those, but what does that have to do with DVD players?

quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Textiles and the like will fall back to local manufacture, once acute shortages are resolved.

No way. They had tariffs on imports before. That maintained the local industry. Why do you think that removing those tariffs will support the same domestic industry?

quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Machine tools, equipment upgrades, and stuff that will drive domestic industry is the best short term use for foreign currency earnings, after immediate supply of basic consumer needs.

That's going to be a drop in the bucket. They need to get serious about putting people to work. They need to do everything they can. The better plan they have the less money we will have to pour into that place and the more likely that the whole situation will be a success.

	11-07-2003 04:18									#59
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quote: It is when that chaos also extends to economic paralyzation. There is no stable government in Iraq now, and that prevents buisnesses from running 'as usual'. When there is stability (which comes from bring the country out of chaos) then the government can begin to address the problems of all the people out of work because the bureaucracy has fallen and all the domestic businesses whose production has fallen due to the war and its aftermath.

The lack of stable government is partially a consequence of failures by the US. The half-hearted attempts to control the looting (to be fair, the looting itself was unexpected), the unsubtle and inept peacekeeping of the troops and failure to get electricity and water running reliably are all contributors to the general chaos, which could and should have been avoided.

Furthermore, the attitude that stability is somehow a stepping stone to getting businesses in is, in my view, misguided. Stability is an end in itself. Getting multi-nationals into Iraq is a goal that, should, quite frankly, be years, if not decades away. In the short term, corporations will bring only problems to Iraq.

The country won't fix itself. Claiming that Iraq's main problems can be tackled only when the country becomes stable is pointless, since it is these very problems which are causing the instability. Stop waiting for 'stability' and start fixing the country, regardless of the difficulty. I suspect that as long as the country remains in ruins, we will continue to hear cries of 'chaos', regardless of how puny the Iraqi resistance is.

	11-07-2003 05:01									#60
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quote: I suspect that as long as the country remains in ruins, we will continue to hear cries of 'chaos', regardless of how puny the Iraqi resistance is.

When were we solely talking about Iraqi resistance . We are talking about the mess the country is in without any real leadership. There is a massive power vaccum, which tends to dampen business greatly. People from the government layed off, etc. The violence isn't the entire picture here.