11-07-2003 13:04									#1
	Something's Fishy... Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Both NYE's and my own simulation give different corruption/waste results for Tripoli for some reason, despite being set up the same way the mimic our position exactly.

We've been unable to confirm that we do indeed have the Commercial trait, so don't know that it was turned off when the game was set up. Though I've done some testing and the MFG values are different, though I can't see the actual difference in our cities...

BF is testing the map size.

I've come up with the theory that the corruption slider might have been turned up.

What else affects corruption?

Help us solve this mystery.

	11-07-2003 14:51									#2
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alexman's "Everything you ever wanted to know about corruption" thread:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=46801

Warning: This thread is a year old.

	11-07-2003 16:05									#3
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Aahh... corruption... whilst in Oz, unable to play, about the time of that CoC on me, I spent evenings at the Uni of NSW's high-spedd Internet browsing through the strategy forum copying down everything I could find that would prove useful - city placement strats, undocumented features, exploits and tricks and equations for corruption and city flips amongst other things.

Although that thread is pretty good, there was a post later that seems to have refined values somewhat.

I can no longer find the location of the post (stupid nonfunctional Poly search!), but I copied two posts by vulture that alter the values of Alexman's investigations somewhat. Given vulture's previous investigations, I am more than willing to trust in these changes:

quote: Originally posted by vulture

More details on corruption
I've been investigating the corruption model under 1.29f, which is a lot easier to do these days thanks to the editor. I've come up with a few, possibly interesting results.

So far, I've only really looked at the distance corruption. Mostly I agree with alexnm's results, so I'll only post the differences here. What I've found out is this:

Distance corrupt tops out at 100% (although the maximum you can be affected by is 95% as always). With a courthouse it is never more than 50%, and with a courthouse and police station it is never more than 26% (a figure which I'll explain in a minute).

Distance corruption is calculated to the nearest 2%, with odd number percentages rounded up. So if the corruption is calculated to be 74.8%, it is stored as 74%, while 75.0% is stored as 76%. 95% is left as 95%
though.

Distance from the capitol is calculated rather strangely. It's not quite the geometric distance from the capitol that counts. You follow the route that a unit would take from the capitol to the town of interest (ignoring terrain, water etc.). Each move NE, NW, SE, SW counts a distance of 1, and each move N, S, E, W counts 1.41... (sqrt(2)). So if the most direct route from your captiol to a town is to move 10 squares SE and then 3 S, the total distance would be 14.23 (more or less). This allows something close to the geometric distance to be calculated, without having to do any square root calculations.

And actually, the distance along the diagonals isn't quite sqrt(2), it's a little larger. My best estimate is close to 1.5 (so cities buily on the NE, SW, NW, SE lines from the captiol have slightly lower corruption than you might expect). But there are complications in this that I don't understand fully yet. There may be some rounding off done to the distance before it is multiplied by the scaling factor to give the percentage. And the distances for very distant cities may not be as large as they ought to be. In practice, this only became noticable in for cities where corruption would be 95% in a real game (with optimal number of cities corruption at its normal level).

To calculate final corruption: the distance corruption percentage is multipled by the total gold production of the city to give a value which is not rounded off (30 gold, with 34% corruption, would give 10.2 gold lost to corruption). The number of cities based corruption is added to this, also as an unrounded number, to give the final total lost to corruption (which *is* then rounded to the nearest integer). In my tests, I set the optimal number of cities to 1000, which gave some very small number. E.g. is the distance based corruption gives 10.2 gold lost (as above), and the OCN corruption is 0.25, then the final corruption is 10.45, i.e. 10. If the OCN corruption is 0.35, then the final corruption is 10.55, which becomes 11. In real games, the OCN corruption is going to be higher than the distance corruption in almost all circumstances.

The capitol (or forbidden palace) has corruption of 4% without a courthouse and 2% with a courthouse.

I would tentatively say that being connected to the palace via road, harbour or whatever multiplies the distance corruption factor by 0.8 (although it can still go to 100% in the absence of a courthouse). The OCN corruption is unaffected by connection to the capitol. I got the factor 0.8 by guessing - the limits I had fixed it between 0.796 and 0.823 (I think), so 0.8 seemed the most sensible value. This may change slightly if I ever figure out just how the distance is really calculated.

Cities at the same distance have the same OCN corruption (as though they were all the nearest out of that group). There is some rounding of distances involved here as well, since I had a group if 5 cities all at slightly different distances, and they all showed the same level of OCN corruption.
[/QUOTE]

And further:

quote: Originally posted by vulture

Alexman: I was already aware of that thread (and would have posted a link to it if I'd ever bothered to find out how to do so). I posted this because I'd found some stuff which explained some of the small discrepancies I'd found using your formula (due to the odd distance calculation and the rounding to 2% for distance corruption) and because I'd found some things to work differently, possibly due to changes in 1.29.

Something else that I suspected, and have now checked, is that connection to your trade network doesn't affect OCN corruption, only distance corruption. And I more or less stand by the value of 0.8 for that - I've got some data which doesn't work with 0.85.

For example: A city has distance corruption of 70% when connected and 86% when unconnected. No matter what scheme is used to round off to the nearest 2% (which is certainly something that is done) this is inconsistent with 0.85 (the maximum value that works is 0.837). Using all my data, I narrowed the value down to the range 0.795-0.827. Anything outside that range gave an incorrect result for at least one city. Anything within that range works for all cities. So I went with 0.8 as the most obvious value, although there is no reason that it couldn't be 0.812567291 (although that's not as neat).

Another possible explanation for discrepancies is that are some bugs lurking in the editor such that corruption isn't calculated properly for scenarios with pre-placed cities, until after the first turn is finished. I've not noticed any differences between the first and second turns, but I've no really looked for any (aside from one - WLTKD doesn't start until the end of the first turn).
[/QUOTE]

(Careful: The below sentences will assume some good knowledge of the corruption model of Alexman's)

Basically all this does is cast some doubt on the value of .85 for the connected via roads etc corruption modifier factor, and sets it instead closer to .8; and also it seems to suggest that distance from the Palace isn't calculated as the geometric distance we (or certainly I) have been using, but rather that we take the fastest route to that city and count every diagonal move as 1, every horizontal/vertical as 1.5. Corruption also seems to be the distance corruption figured out, then rounded to the nearest even percentage point and then added to the OCN corruption percentage to give a total corruption percentage. I have not tested this further nor seen any research that superceded this, and I would appreciate being pointed out to any that does.

	11-07-2003 16:18									#4
	Inflate your Upload Space

I can tell you from experience with GS that what vulture doesn't know about the statistics of Civ3 isn't worth knowing.

	11-07-2003 18:49									#5
	Re: Something's Fishy... Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Trip I've come up with the theory that the corruption slider might have been turned up.

There is a slider for that ..?



Are you playing under the same patch?

	11-07-2003 18:57									#6
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quote: There is a slider for that ..?

In the editor there is, yes.
It could have been changed at the same time mongoose was creating chokepoints all over the place.

	12-07-2003 01:42									#7
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hmm... this map/scenario is getting fishier and fishier by the moment. Let's add this to the list of things to mention when we can ask Firaxis if the map has to be custom... then we can post everything together in one big post on 1BC.

Is there anything else out of place?

	12-07-2003 03:32									#8
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So far from what I have see, my calculations seem to jive with everything that WIA has pointed out. I did NOT know about the rounding to the nearest 2% for the distance factor part of the equation, but that just means that a discrepancy of 1% from calculated.

But for what we are showing that we should have (i.e. real game results) compaired to what is calculated for what we should have, is all showing like it should. So this is not an issue, IIRC.

IF the slider was different, then I would have found this out much sooner. So I don't think that this is a problem,

As for NYE's and BF's Sims, That I can't attest to....

MoI E_T

	12-07-2003 03:37									#9
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It will be a process to discover the various discrepencies. I don't think we have it yet. What Trip and I are seeing could be a quirk of the editor, or possibly the CMT.

We will continue looking for oddities, and trying to find an explanation for the corruption discrepency.

	12-07-2003 03:40									#10
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E_T, I would have sent it to you last night, then we found the corruption problem. It got very late and I went to bed. I will send it to you this evening, current yet somewhat off for corruption in Tripoli.

	12-07-2003 19:55									#11
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This IS truly strange, Yes it looks like Tripoli does have more corruption than it should. It's at a minimum of 38%, where it should be lower (the point that the extra waste from 4 sheilds/trade would be noticable). I as both Tripoli and Karina are the same distance from poly, that might have been a factor, IF they are considered to have 7th rank, but abandoning Karina does NOT effect this, so it's not that.

I think that we need to get Alexman and Grampos to look at this.

E_T

	13-07-2003 07:30									#12
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Hi guys, I would be happy to take a look at the save, to see if I can figure out what's going on. As soon as I get the password, I will.

By the way, initial post in the corruption article is actually up-to-date.

	13-07-2003 08:31									#13
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Excellent. Thanks, alexman.

*clap, clap, clap*

	13-07-2003 10:31									#14
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quote: Originally posted by alexman Hi guys, I would be happy to take a look at the save, to see if I can figure out what's going on. As soon as I get the password, I will. By the way, initial post in the corruption article is actually up-to-date.

Glad to finally have you with us Alexman.

* E_T jumps with joy

If you send me your e-mail addy, I can send you a save or 2, with the password.

My e-mail is E_T_1(AT)mpinet(DOT)com.

You can always join us in our private chatroom, #ApolytonISDG, the password is currently 'bigpower'. There is almost always someone there at anytime and we are waiting for the next save, currently.

E_T

	13-07-2003 20:31									#15
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

OK, I took a look at Tripoli.

According to the corruption calculator, this city is supposed to have 34% corruption (38% if we're not a commercial civ).

(Standard map, despotism, rampant corruption, no FP, no anti-corruption buildings, Regent level, connected to empire, 6 tiles SE from capital, 2 tiles SW from capital, 5 cities closer).

In this case the corruption is correct, as the corruption is rounded to the nearest integer number of shileds/commerce.

For 5 shields production,
5*0.34=1.7 which gives two shields waste.

For 4 shields production,
4*0.34=1.36 which gives one shield waste.

If we had not been a commercial civ (38% corruption), there would have been two shields wasted, even at 4 production.

Hope this helps!

	14-07-2003 00:00									#16
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Alexman, the problem is that in the simulations the results match that, but in the actual game we're losing TWO of FOUR shields and commerce.

	14-07-2003 00:17									#17
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Alexman, you are correct in that what you have stated IS what we are expecting Tripoli to have. The problem is, that it's not turnng out that way.

Taken from the 925 save (all things being equil at this point)

code:

Raw Sheilds        Waste         Output
      1              0              1
      2              1              1
      3              1              2
      4              2              2
      5              2              3

code:

Based on actual values

City                Rank     Min %     Max %
Apolyton             1         3%       4%  
Incensity            2         9%       9% 
Mingapolco           3        13%      16% - More likely 13%
Bananatopia          4        13%      14% - More likely 14%
Hispanica            5        17%      24%
LuxInvicta           6        25%      37% - not enough actual data to determine a better range.
Tripoli              7        38%      49%
Karina               7        25%      49% - not enough actual data to determine a better range.  Unconnected and the same distance as Tripoli
Big Bend             9        38%      63% - not enough actual data to determine a better range.  Unconnected.

Last edited by E_T on 14-07-2003 at 03:26

	14-07-2003 03:13									#18
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That's very strange, because when I open the real 925 save, I get only one wasted shield out of the four produced.

	14-07-2003 03:20									#19
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quote: Originally posted by alexman That's very strange, because when I open the real 925 save, I get only one wasted shield out of the four produced.

Current turn is 900 BC, after we built a 9th city.

	14-07-2003 03:22									#20
	Inflate your Upload Space

the 9th city doesn't matter, as it's further away from poly than Tripoli is. The 925 save is just as good.

This is truly strange. Alexman, are you using a mod'ed bix file??

E_T

	14-07-2003 03:33									#21
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Hmmm, it changes after the 8th city is built on turn 925.

That means alexman's sim is off if he didn't build the city.

	14-07-2003 03:47									#22
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Trip., that is because the 8th city is closer to Poly than tripoli is, so it 'pushes' tripoly back in the number of cities part of the corruption figures

It's not the number that you have, but how many is closer to the capitol (including the capitol) that determines this factor. Distance is always the same, but is still effected my several things.

Please take a look at Alexman's corruption thread and the FAQ before you post more about this. We do know what we are talking about, sometimes...

E_T

	14-07-2003 03:51									#23
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As I said, it changes after the 8th city is built.

	14-07-2003 05:17									#24
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Sorry, I didn't realize that there were other cities built since the beginning of the 925 save.

E_T is right. As of the latest save, Tripoli has one extra city closer to the capital, so it is supposed to have 37% corruption (42% for non-commercial).

37% of 4 is 1.48, which is awfully close to being rounded up to 2 shields lost. I wouldn't sweat too much over being cheated 0.02 shields by the civ3 game engine. It probably got lost in rounding of intermediate calculations (either by the game or by my calculator).

Anyway, the commercial trait seems to be in effect, as if it weren't, Tripoli would have had 2 wasted shields even before the 8th city were built.

	14-07-2003 05:41									#25
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Alexman, how do the other real figures jive with what you calculate?

E_T

	14-07-2003 05:43									#26
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The thing is WHY does the calculations come out one way in our simulations and another way in the real game??

I have never seen this before.

E_T

	14-07-2003 06:25									#27
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Here's the predicted corruption for all the cities, as of 900 BC:

code:

City       Distance    Rank  Corruption%
------------------------------------------
Apolyton    0.0         0       3
Incenscity  2.5         1       9
Mingapulco  3.0         2      14
Bananatopia 3.5         3      18
Hispanica   4.5         4      24
LuxInvicta  5.0         5      28
Tripoli     7.0         6      37
Karina      7.0         6      41
BigBend     7.5         8      49

	14-07-2003 06:50									#28
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Could the slight discrepancies EVERYwhere be the result of the unknown factors that lead to minor differences from those predicted, as mentioned by vulture?

	14-07-2003 06:59									#29
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Well, it's only Tripoli and Bananatopia that have discrepancies.

However, since we don't know why that is, they can certainly be attributed to "unknown factors"!

I still think it's due to rounding though.