12-07-2003 01:01									#31
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how many troops do Germany and France have available anyway? France currently has troops deployed in Ivory Coast and DR Congo. Germany has troops in Afghanistan. Both have troops in the Balkans. How many can each deploy abroad anyway? Are they not close to overstretch also?

	12-07-2003 01:01									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Your mess, you did it when everyone else said not to, so you clean it up. Then don't ***** when the occupation isn't to your liking .

Ha..

That's like saying Company X has polluted the countryside so they should clean it up, but if they do no one is allowed to criticise them for polluting.

	12-07-2003 01:04									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Ha.. That's like saying Company X has polluted the countryside so they should clean it up, but if they do no one is allowed to criticise them for polluting.

A company that pollutes the countryside makes a pristine place worse.

Surely you're not saying that about Iraq????

Even most of the Iraqis who want us gone consider that we've improved things from what they were.

	12-07-2003 01:07									#34
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark A company that pollutes the countryside makes a pristine place worse. Surely you're not saying that about Iraq???? Even most of the Iraqis who want us gone consider that we've improved things from what they were.

You are missing the point of the example. Imran seemed to be saying that those who say it's the Coalition's mess to clean up are somehow precluded from criticising them for making it. Generalising that principle would be really silly.

	12-07-2003 01:08									#35
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quote: That's like saying Company X has polluted the countryside so they should clean it up, but if they do no one is allowed to criticise them for polluting.

Way to twist things .

If Company X asks for help and you deny it to them, saying it is their mess and they should clean it up, when no one else owns the countryside then yeah, you cannot critisize them for the way they are doing the cleanup.

Did I say you couldn't ***** about the war? No, I said you couldn't ***** about the occupation.

	12-07-2003 01:24									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: That's like saying Company X has polluted the countryside so they should clean it up, but if they do no one is allowed to criticise them for polluting. Way to twist things . If Company X asks for help and you deny it to them, saying it is their mess and they should clean it up, when no one else owns the countryside then yeah, you cannot critisize them for the way they are doing the cleanup. Did I say you couldn't ***** about the war? No, I said you couldn't ***** about the occupation.

Why should people pay who aren't responsible for the mess? Of course they have a right to demand that it is cleaned up properly.

	12-07-2003 01:28									#37
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The company example is stupid and doesn't apply to this situation.

	12-07-2003 02:57									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The Senate recently passed a resolution calling upon the President to officially ask the UN or Nato to take a leading role. Democrates, and many Republicans, are getting feed up with Bush's cowboy antics. The resolution is nonbinding and the Bush Administration is continuing to insist that all desitions continue to rest with the original coalition. So why would anyone commite money and manpower to something if Bush doesn't want to give them any say in how the show is run?

More importantly, why would anybody want to join after the US told us we weren't necessary?

If the US wanted an international force then it should have gotten international approval. Since it didn't, I don't want any of my money going toward easing the US' burden.

	12-07-2003 03:03									#39
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Re the deaths among our troops, every death is tragic. But if our troops were made up of average Americans living in the US, there would be 1,300 deaths a year anyways.

That seems high. Are you remembering that the Army is not a representative cross-section of US society? 20 year-old men don't die at quite the same rate that 80 year-old men do...

	12-07-2003 04:14									#40
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse That seems high. Are you remembering that the Army is not a representative cross-section of US society? 20 year-old men don't die at quite the same rate that 80 year-old men do...

You also need to look specifically at what the cause of death or casualty was. Although 80 year old men die at a higher rate than 20 year olds overall, (I would guess that) more 20 year olds are involved in traffic accidents and work related injuries than 80 year olds.

	12-07-2003 04:18									#41
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Though reading this thread I do find it funny that Europeans consider American petty and childish .

Yeah, let's stick it to the US... if more Iraqis die in the chaos it'll be better to rub it in!

	12-07-2003 04:22									#42
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Who says less Iraqis will die as a result of your governance (especially long term) than will die if their resistance continues?

	12-07-2003 04:26									#43
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Why take the chance?

At the very least if your troops are there, you get a say in the governance.

	12-07-2003 04:30									#44
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That makes no sense. We also lend legitimacy to the original invasion.

Now, if the US were to apologise to the world community, withdraw all of its troops and pay for the lion's share of costs then I could see my way clear to putting men with maple leafs and blue helmets on the ground.

	12-07-2003 04:32									#45
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Got to go now. Be back later.

	12-07-2003 04:33									#46
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quote: We also lend legitimacy to the original invasion.

I don't see why it would? All you'd have to say is that we do not believe in the original invasion, but believe that the Iraqi people need humanitarian assistance.

There, why is that hard and how does that lend legitimacy to the invasion? Unless you want to close your eyes and pretend it never happened.

	12-07-2003 04:34									#47
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Help? From us? nah let em drown in the **** they started. US needs again to be reminded that internal affairs should not dictate foreign policy. This applies to France, Germany and GB too, but mostly it's USA that needs another painful lesson.

let them drown in their ****, as my father used to say about the russians...

	12-07-2003 04:39									#48
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The funny thing is that that attitude is just going to solidify in the US opinion that we have to 'go it alone'. It's a self-defeating policy. If you want to go ahead and do it be my guest... but the rest of the world helping would go further to educating ordinary Americans about international cooperation.

All ordinary Americans are thinking right now is: these Euros are *******s... I guess we DO have to go it alone to do what's right.

	12-07-2003 04:40									#49
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read my post again please

	12-07-2003 04:40									#50
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If they needed humaniterian assistence hen why didn't the us lift of the embargo on Iraq?

	12-07-2003 04:44									#51
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quote: read my post again please

I did and it doesn't change my position.

Do what you want... just don't be surpised when the US gets more unilateral.

quote: If they needed humaniterian assistence hen why didn't the us lift of the embargo on Iraq?

The humanitarian assistance is to bring order to the country. How would lifting the embargo during Saddam's reign have accomplished that goal?

	12-07-2003 04:50									#52
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There may be little difference between Iraq and many other places in the past where, once the shooting died down in intensity it was totally proper to send in the UN brigade (Canucks, and Belgians, and Pakistanis, and...) wearing the blue helmuts to help the people rebuild their lives. That's what it should be about at this point, the welfare of the Iraqi people. If the presense of Johnny Canuck in his blue helmet would help stop the fighting, and aid in rebuilding the country, then he should go. Unfortunately, he is off in Afghanistan at the moment, and will have to get back to George when a spot opens on the schedule.

	12-07-2003 04:53									#53
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* FROM THE GREAT BOOK OF REVELATIONS *
The point of my post was that US foreign policy is dangerously and recklessly closely tied to the internal affairs. Just as the Bush-adminstration has admitted, the facts about Iraq "were seen in new light after 11/9". The war on Iraq was 100% GwB political maneuvering. Hes desperate attempt to boost economy, popularity and US influence in the ME at the same time. However war is never the right answer. Peace, equality and stability are the things that make the world go 'round.
peace out

	12-07-2003 04:54									#54
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Well most of the Iraqi pepole were staving because of Saddams tyranny and the embargo sertanly didn't help.

	12-07-2003 05:09									#55
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quote: The point of my post was that US foreign policy is dangerously and recklessly closely tied to the internal affairs.

And my point is that these 'screw them' actions make it more likely that future US foreign policy will be as 'dangerous and reckless' as you think it is now.

quote: Well most of the Iraqi pepole were staving because of Saddams tyranny and the embargo sertanly didn't help.

So let Saddam off with a slap on the wrist? The only alternative to embargo was regime change.

	12-07-2003 05:23									#56
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If the presense of Johnny Canuck in his blue helmet would help stop the fighting, and aid in rebuilding the country, then he should go. Unfortunately, he is off in Afghanistan at the moment, and will have to get back to George when a spot opens on the schedule.

Johnny Canuck's help is very much appreciated in Afghanistan. That said, the deployment to Afghanistan isn't exactly that large and shouldn't stretch Canada's resources too much. If it does, well...

	12-07-2003 05:37									#57
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quote: Originally posted by ískallin If they needed humaniterian assistence hen why didn't the us lift of the embargo on Iraq?

What I've heard is that almost no one was starving but almost everyone was dependent upon the oil for food program.

	12-07-2003 05:57									#58
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quote: Originally posted by DanS If the presense of Johnny Canuck in his blue helmet would help stop the fighting, and aid in rebuilding the country, then he should go. Unfortunately, he is off in Afghanistan at the moment, and will have to get back to George when a spot opens on the schedule. Johnny Canuck's help is very much appreciated in Afghanistan. That said, the deployment to Afghanistan isn't exactly that large and shouldn't stretch Canada's resources too much. If it does, well...

A good chunk of our available infantry have been earmarked for Kabul. 2 1,800 person rotations. We don't have a large army. The entire forces is about 60,000 (Army, Navy, Air Force) regulars. The DND employs 20,000 civil servants, if that gives you an indication of the priorities of our governments of late.

	12-07-2003 06:03									#59
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Again, to be clear, those 1,800 soldiers are appreciated. It's one of the biggest deployments to Afghanistan.

if that gives you an indication of the priorities of our governments of late

I have a sense of the priorities and they are what are--the US can't change Canada's priorities. But do you agree with those priorities?

	12-07-2003 06:06									#60
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Also, I saw pictures of Australian troops doing patrols in Baghdad. I thank them for stepping into a slightly hairy area of the country.