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ískallin is offline ískallin
Prince
of the Republic of Iceland
Mar 2002
time: 05:29
  Old Post 11-07-2003 22:44
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The Bush administration is pleading for help in Iraq. Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote:
The Bush administration is coming under growing domestic pressure over its Iraq strategy amid continuing attacks on US forces in the country.

The US Senate has voted unanimously to urge President George W Bush to consider asking Nato and the United Nations for help in rebuilding Iraq.

The non-binding resolution said that while it was in the interests of the United States to remain engaged in Iraq, conditions there posed a serious threat to American troops.

Public opinion in the US appears to reflect this disquiet, with polls showing a marked decline in support for the Bush administration's policy on Iraq.

The Senate vote came after General Tommy Franks, until recently at the helm of US-led coalition forces in Iraq, warned that American forces might have to remain in the country far longer than anticipated.

I'm now concerned that we have the world's best-trained soldiers serving as policemen in what seems to be a shooting gallery

Senator Edward Kennedy
General Franks said attacks on US soldiers, which have killed more than 30 since the war was declared over, were occurring at a rate of 10 to 25 a day.

Friday saw the US pull most of its troops out of a police station in the Iraqi town of Falluja, about 50 kilometres (30 miles) west of the capital Baghdad, a day after protests at the continued US military presence there.

An American military spokesman said about six soldiers would remain at the station to support the new police force in the town, where there have been frequent clashes between Iraqis and US forces.

Iraqi police officers had threatened to resign if the Americans did not leave the station, as they felt joint patrols with American forces placed them at risk of attack.

Overnight, a series of three mortar strikes were launched on an American base in the town of Ramadi, 100 kilometres (60 miles) west of Baghdad, although there were no injuries reported.

And the US military said two Iraqi civilians were wounded in crossfire following a rocket-propelled grenade attack on a US patrol near Baghdad airport.

'Share the burden'

Senators from the opposition Democratic Party - many of whom supported the decision to launch the war in Iraq that toppled Saddam Hussein's regime - are expressing deep concern about events on the ground.

They are also raising questions about the administration's citing of Iraq's alleged weapons of mass destruction as a justification for the decision to go to war. No such weapons have been found in Iraq.

The guts of the work will still have to be done by the United States, Great Britain and the original members of the coalition

Secretary of State Colin Powell
The Democrats urged Mr Bush to mend fences with France and Germany - key Nato members who were firmly opposed to the war.

Senator John Kerry, who hopes to challenge Mr Bush for the presidency next year, said: "We now know that the administration went to war without a thorough plan to win the peace.

"It is time to face that truth and change course, to share the post-war burden internationally for the sake of our country."

Senator Carl Levin, leading Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee, said it was "a mystery" why the Bush administration had not made a formal request for Nato forces in Iraq.

He expressed the hope that soldiers wearing Nato insignia would not be targeted in Iraq with the same ferocity as their American counterparts.

Reluctance

But there appears to be a marked reluctance among other nations to commit troops to support US and British forces in Iraq.

Secretary of State Colin Powell admitted there was uncertainty about the level of support the US and Britain could expect.

"I can't give you the exact number of nations or how many troops are going to be committed," he told CNN.

"The guts of the work will still have to be done by the United States, Great Britain and the original members of the coalition."

There is also concern about the cost of the US commitment to Iraq.

The Senate warned that the final bill for reconstruction would run into tens of billions of dollars over several years, and projected that Iraqi oil revenues will not cover those costs.

Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has said that the cost of continuing military operations in Iraq is running at $3.9bn a month, higher than anticipated.


So why is it that the almighty Bush is considering to ask for help in Iraq, are his uber soldiers not good enough or what?

SlowwHand is offline SlowwHand
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Sep 1999
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  Old Post 11-07-2003 22:48 Visit SlowwHand's homepage!
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You dumbass. He was asking for help for months.

faded glory is offline faded glory
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Jan 2001
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  Old Post 11-07-2003 22:51
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If you dont think we cant do this on our own. Your sadly mistaken. 32 deaths, that about .5 a day since major combat ended.

Besides, more and more are "allies" are like blisters anyway.. Only arriving when the work is done.

SlowwHand is offline SlowwHand
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  Old Post 11-07-2003 22:54 Visit SlowwHand's homepage!
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FG. True.

Jac de Molay is offline Jac de Molay
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Sep 2001
time: 05:29
  Old Post 11-07-2003 22:55
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Let's see....

2-4 years at $4 billion a month... Not to mention the human toll.

So glad we're getting our money's worth, at least.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
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Sep 2001
time: 21:29
  Old Post 11-07-2003 22:58
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The Senate recently passed a resolution calling upon the President to officially ask the UN or Nato to take a leading role. Democrates, and many Republicans, are getting feed up with Bush's cowboy antics. The resolution is nonbinding and the Bush Administration is continuing to insist that all desitions continue to rest with the original coalition.

So why would anyone commite money and manpower to something if Bush doesn't want to give them any say in how the show is run?

MikeH is offline MikeH
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Ming on rakastajani
May 1999
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  Old Post 11-07-2003 23:00 Visit MikeH's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by SlowwHand
FG. True.


Excellent. I'm going to write to my MP and ask her to petition to get our troops out, as you don't need us.

ískallin is offline ískallin
Prince
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Mar 2002
time: 05:29
  Old Post 11-07-2003 23:06
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so if the deaths ratio stay 5 a day for a year that's 1825 deaths for 3 years and sixs mont's that's 6387 one third of a full infantry division division.

4$ billions a month for three and six month's, that's 168000000000 dollars. What's bush going to do?
Raise taxes? Stop fixing roads or something

ískallin is offline ískallin
Prince
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Mar 2002
time: 05:29
  Old Post 11-07-2003 23:11
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And i forgot to mention to what purpose!! It now has come to light that the bush administration falsed evideneces about the mass destruction weapons(it was of course a good job to kick saddam out but in the end they didn't even manage to capture him!)

And if theBush administration lied about this thing are there any more things that they have lied?

faded glory is offline faded glory
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Jan 2001
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  Old Post 11-07-2003 23:11
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The details are in the soup. Hidden behind a curtain of Liberal propaganda. The price goes down every month as more oil is pumped. In May it was 9 billion a week. Whats that say?

C0ckney is offline C0ckney
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Big Up The Macedonian Massive
Apr 2000
time: 05:29
  Old Post 11-07-2003 23:14
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where do you get the figure 5 deaths a day from? (not that i can't guess...).

faded glory is offline faded glory
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This trash talking 2 bit dope dealer is about to learn respect for the law
Jan 2001
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  Old Post 11-07-2003 23:17
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.5 deaths


not 5

And Im just guessing. Its been 2 months since combat ended (60 days) 32, deaths etc.

C0ckney is offline C0ckney
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Big Up The Macedonian Massive
Apr 2000
time: 05:29
  Old Post 11-07-2003 23:19
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my post wasn't in responce to you.

faded glory is offline faded glory
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Jan 2001
time: 05:29
  Old Post 11-07-2003 23:21
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it sounded like it was

I mean. How could I tell?

ískallin is offline ískallin
Prince
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Mar 2002
time: 05:29
  Old Post 11-07-2003 23:22
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hehe okey divide that by to but i's still a lot of deaths for no apparant reason

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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Mar 2003
time: 21:29
  Old Post 11-07-2003 23:30 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by faded glory
The price goes down every month as more oil is pumped. In May it was 9 billion a week. Whats that say?


Oil revenue is interesting. It is suppose to be Iraqs, but how can it be it the US is making all the decisions about Iraq? If oil revenue is going to pay for the occupation than it is not Iraqs.

I don't really think the cost of the occupation is as low as they are saying it is and instead of getting lower I think it will get higher. The administration is trying to put in the minimum dollar to the occupation and it's not enough. If they want to be effective they will have to spend more money, and I think they are starting to do that.

DanS is offline DanS
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Jan 1970
time: 00:29
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This is a weird thread. The article says nothing like "The Bush administration is pleading for help in Iraq." Where did the thread starter get this idea?

We have standing requests for foreign troops. These are a couple of months old.

What's bush going to do? Raise taxes? Stop fixing roads or something

Do you have any idea about how large our defense budget is?

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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Mar 2003
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He's not going to raise taxes. He will lower them more if anything. The prices will be added to the deficit.

child of Thor is offline child of Thor
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UK
Jan 2002
time: 05:29
  Old Post 12-07-2003 00:06
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well i hope France and Germany tell Bush to stick it where the sun don't shine.
Its unfortunate that they need money badly as they'll probably be bribed into getting the UN involved, America and Britain might as well use their ill gotten gains for something useful.
I really, really hope the UN doesn't bail them out. Its time we as tax payers in these countries feel the fallout of letting our governments get away with 'legalised' plundering of resources(dressed in any disguise they want).
In fact The U.S and Britain should foot the bill themselves as a matter of principle, as it was they that put Saddam in power in the first place. It would seem fair.
Oh yeah if anybody hides behind the shield of saying these remarks are just 'liberal propaganda' then its obvious you are just happy to live in a hole of your own choice, one i'm happy to leave you in
Luckily most of the world is starting to wake up and smell the coffe.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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  Old Post 12-07-2003 00:14 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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Since the Republicans cut taxes for the rich here in the US, I don't even think that many Americans support the occupation. I certainly am not suprised that people in other countries don't support it. If they really needed the money then they shouldn't have cut taxes.

Last edited by Kidicious on 12-07-2003 at 00:20

Boris Godunov is offline Boris Godunov
King
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Aug 2001
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  Old Post 12-07-2003 00:18
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quote:
Originally posted by faded glory
If you dont think we cant do this on our own. Your sadly mistaken. 32 deaths, that about .5 a day since major combat ended.

Besides, more and more are "allies" are like blisters anyway.. Only arriving when the work is done.


Uh, we've lost over 70 soldiers since combat ended in May. Non-combat deaths are still deaths attributable to our occupation.

ískallin is offline ískallin
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Mar 2002
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  Old Post 12-07-2003 00:33
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If it's about one a day as boris states, then its 356 a year x4 so thats alot

This 16800000000 is PLUS the military budget plus the afghanistan prize (isn't that about a billion?)

DanS is offline DanS
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Re the deaths among our troops, every death is tragic. But if our troops were made up of average Americans living in the US, there would be 1,300 deaths a year anyways. So if a troop dies in a traffic accident in Iraq, I would hardly consider that it is due to the occupation.

Re the money, that is a lot of money, but really only a small proportion of our economy, our federal budget, and even of our military budget.

Agathon is offline Agathon
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Dec 2002
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  Old Post 12-07-2003 00:46
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Count "casualties" not deaths and then you'll have a better estimate.

Anyway, the US and Britain can piss off. Your mess, you did it when everyone else said not to, so you clean it up.

Sava is offline Sava
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Mar 2001
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  Old Post 12-07-2003 00:51
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quote:
The details are in the soup. Hidden behind a curtain of Liberal propaganda.
How's your tinfoil hat?

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
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  Old Post 12-07-2003 00:55
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quote:
Your mess, you did it when everyone else said not to, so you clean it up.


Then don't ***** when the occupation isn't to your liking .

Jac de Molay is offline Jac de Molay
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Sep 2001
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  Old Post 12-07-2003 00:56
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quote:
Originally posted by DanS
Re the money, that is a lot of money, but really only a small proportion of our economy, our federal budget, and even of our military budget.


A few billion here...a few billion there. Heck, pretty soon your talking about real money.

Shi Huangdi is offline Shi Huangdi
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Apr 1999
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The USA is very wealthy, having a multitrillion dollar(I think it is 12 trill IIRC) GDP. $4 bil is pocket change.

lord of the mark is offline lord of the mark
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  Old Post 12-07-2003 00:58
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we almost certainly can do this on our own if we have to - it doesnt seem like we need more than the currently deployed number to keep a lid on things while political reconstruction goes forward. However it comes at a considerable cost to the US military, in terms of lost training, harm to morale, etc. And a more fully multilateral force would be a greater assurance to the people of Iraq that this is a genuine liberation, and so would probably expedite the defeat of the Saddamites and the reconstruction of the country and so would be a good thing for the people of Iraq.

The question becomes one of command. The Senate, following the suggestions of folks like Joe Leiberman, seems to envision NATO command. While the administration has not yet publicly accepted that, its very unlikely that they wouldnt, - as in Kosovo a NATO force could report to SACEUR (Supreme Allied Commander Europe) who is usually (currently?) an American, and even if not I think we'd have little trouble with a NATO command. IIUC the problem is that France and Germany wont go under NATO command, theyre insisting on a UN command, or at least a more explicit UN authorization for such a force than in UNSC 1483. And NATO cant move as an organization if France and Germany veto. And the admin isnt inclined to publicly ask for NATO support if it isnt assured of getting it - they were already burned over the Turkey thing.

And this is a sensitive time politically in Iraq - theres a new 25 person Iraqi governing council forming. Balanced among ethnic and religious groups, clerics and secular, exiles and locals, and also between folks sympathetic to the neo-con agenda for the region (Chalabi and the Kurds) and people opposed to it (pachecho and SCIRI) Bringing in a UN command at this point might complicate things a bit - especially from the point of view of folks who dont trust the UN-French-Russian agenda for the region.

So i suspect this wont be resolved until the governing council is more firmly in place. Which may have been expedited because of the need to make the occupation force more multilateral.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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Let's hear that crap when the deficit hits $400bn

 
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