12-07-2003 21:52									#31
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quote: Originally posted by SuperSneak I've just always thought it ironic how busted up people are in situation where it seems like the "tragic victim" was basically ignored or mistreated during their lives. If we showed even a glimmer more of how much we supposedly care for each other, there'd be a lot less suicides.

Five thumbs-up, my most prestigous rating. I could not agree with you more.

	12-07-2003 22:15									#32
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Thanks...my father is basically dying right in front of my eyes right now, so the theme of "caring while you can" is pretty major for me...it's just amazing to me how cruel and negative we are so much of the time and how we hunger for a little love from others.
I don't know why people are like this--I'm just as guilty at times--but the feeling of isolation and aloneness with no transcendant moments is obviously too much for some people. They have my utmost sympathy.

	12-07-2003 22:17									#33
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quote: Originally posted by SuperSneak Thanks...my father is basically dying right in front of my eyes right now, so the theme of "caring while you can" is pretty major for me

Sorry to hear about that

	12-07-2003 22:27									#34
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Yeah...thanks...it's pretty tough watching a man who was, at one time, extremely virile and intimidating, reduced to this...I had to rush over to my parents house on the 4th of July because he had gotten trapped in the bath tub...he's too weak to get himself around like he used to, on oxygen 24/7, lost a bunch of weight, etc.
Our dynamic was atypically "distant father/placating son" growing up, and now it has changed completely. Seeing your dad naked and tremoring, trapped in a bathtub and humiliated is very difficult.
I wrote him a long sort of "farewell" letter for Father's Day, but I can't help but shake the feeling I should be doing or saying something important and momentous right now while we've still got a little time.

Uh...sorry for the threadjack.

	12-07-2003 22:37									#36
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Damn, I feel your pain, Supersneak. My father has dodged a bullet, but still had a major operation...

What happened to your father?

	12-07-2003 22:42									#37
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My father has had lung problems his whole life (collapsed in high school and college) and smoked, which led to him getting one lung removed @ 10 years ago (a miracle he's made it this long, really). Basically, his remaining lung is wearing down and he's got emphysema...so there is no recovery (barring miraculous new developments I guess) from his illness. Of course, no one else in the family is discussing the inevitabilities, but it is fairly obvious what is happening, as he is a shadow of his former self and cannot exert himself much more than a shuffle without taxing his body to the extreme.
They even got him one of those scooters, which just adds to the indignity and jarring image.

Don't smoke!!!!

	12-07-2003 22:44									#38
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yah

caring is very important, you never know when someone might no longer be with you

Jon Miller

	12-07-2003 22:49									#39
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Isn't there a way to transplant lungs? (for the record, my father is a liver transplantee, a transplantation that saved his life from Hepatatis B. should've used protection in his wild ventures in India, I guess. )

Last edited by Az on 13-07-2003 at 11:23

	12-07-2003 22:49									#40
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You lost your father recently, didn't you Jon?
I just know that if we all took a moment to think about how big a void people leave when they are gone, and strive to let them know that we appreciate them here and now, the world would be a significantly improved place.

	12-07-2003 23:18									#41
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Umm, has anybody who responded to this thread had real, unmedicated depression? I have. It's kinda like having to listen to "paint it black" every waking second of your life, day in and day out. No real reason, nothing to justify bad feeling, you just feel immense hatred for everything in general. Eventually it gets so overwhelming that I could see committing suicide just to stop the craziness. I got prozac before I got anywhere near that far, so now I'm pretty much eternally content, but I can imagine things getting so bad you feel like you have to go nownownownowNOW! The idea of taking others with you probably stems from a sense of the injustice of it all-"dammit, if I'm gonna hurt, somebody else better hurt with me." I doubt that feelings of power have anything to do with it. Typically the depressed deliberately tell themselves how hopeless their situations are just to rationalize otherwise inexplicable bad feeling. I remember thinking a "C" in tenth-grade English meant my life was ruined, literally. I'd never get into college and I would therefore die a loveless wino on the street and blahblahblah...depressed people aren't even remotely rational; at least, I sure as hell wasn't. I just retained enough intelligence and awareness to realize I was being stupid, and got help.

	13-07-2003 11:09									#42
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quote: Originally posted by ADG I've heard many stories about why people are doing suicide, but none of them makes much sense... the neverending story: "My girl left me, I don't want to live anymore, and she shouldn't either, so I go kill her, then kill myself" Most people who makes suicide, actually has a much better life as me (Well... it's diffecult to get a such low life, as I have), but still I have never thought about doing suicide, and never will... My life sucks, and I probably don't have much chance to get a good future, but still I'm seing the positive side of everything, that has a positive side...

hey your life doesn't suck as much as mine, so there!

	13-07-2003 11:15									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Elok Umm, has anybody who responded to this thread had real, unmedicated depression? I have. It's kinda like having to listen to "paint it black" every waking second of your life, day in and day out. No real reason, nothing to justify bad feeling, you just feel immense hatred for everything in general. Eventually it gets so overwhelming that I could see committing suicide just to stop the craziness. I got prozac before I got anywhere near that far, so now I'm pretty much eternally content, but I can imagine things getting so bad you feel like you have to go nownownownowNOW! The idea of taking others with you probably stems from a sense of the injustice of it all-"dammit, if I'm gonna hurt, somebody else better hurt with me." I doubt that feelings of power have anything to do with it. Typically the depressed deliberately tell themselves how hopeless their situations are just to rationalize otherwise inexplicable bad feeling. I remember thinking a "C" in tenth-grade English meant my life was ruined, literally. I'd never get into college and I would therefore die a loveless wino on the street and blahblahblah...depressed people aren't even remotely rational; at least, I sure as hell wasn't. I just retained enough intelligence and awareness to realize I was being stupid, and got help.

yes I have had depression. That was the only point in my life I was seriously contenplating suicide. although another part of the problem I was drinking too much. my drinking problem really hurt my naval career- not that I cared at the time. i just wanted to die.

since then, I've had much, much shorter episodes of depression. often it only lasts a few hours. You could say I have mood swings

	13-07-2003 11:17									#44
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quote: Originally posted by SuperSneak You lost your father recently, didn't you Jon? I just know that if we all took a moment to think about how big a void people leave when they are gone, and strive to let them know that we appreciate them here and now, the world would be a significantly improved place.

losing your father that way is very difficult. My father basically drank himself to death. In a way, it was a form of suicide- slow suicide. But that was due to addiction. He had diabetes- and heavy drinking with diabetes isn't a good thing. but his body basically shut down.

I didn't witness my fathers demise that much. I was in the military and only saw him like once a year when I came home. For a while he had no place to stay and lived in his vehicle. I felt really guilty about that. I always feel like I could have done more for my father. He died when I was in the Persian gulf.

	13-07-2003 11:31									#45
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Supersneak, I went through what you're now going through almost 2 years ago. It is sad, but all you can do is have alot of patience and help whenever possible to reduce the stress on your mom if she's alive. We were actually somewhat relieved when he passed, he was in alot of pain and refused hospital and rest home care and just would not exercise enough even with me pushing and helping, so he signed onto dying and wouldn't help us help him. It was better he went before doctors had to start removing his limbs because of diabetes...

	13-07-2003 19:12									#47
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i've suffered through depression, and i'm just now coming out of one.

the first one... saa, i don't know what i was thinking at the time when i tried it. i was hurt, i was angry at myself, i couldn't see farther than the evening, i didn't want to think, or feel, or see, or believe in anything because i couldn't see a point to it.

life was hell. death would have been hell too, but i didn't care. easier to have someone hate you than you hate yourself.

of course, when it failed, i learned that claritin-d does not get fatal in the quantities i ingested. it does make you feel quite shitty.

afterwards, i remember storing all of my prescriptions (none for the depression--i never got medication for that) in a bottle i called the "final solution"... i remember having claritin d, zyrtec, hydrocodone, atenolol (taken from my brother's prescription), and a few others... and it would have been used for a second attempt. when i got better, i kept it around as a reminder, and it wasn't until i left for college that i dumped everything. it scared the **** out of me.

in my most recent bout, i never seriously considered it, but those thoughts came there. sometimes, it was the same morbid what's the point i don't want to do anything anymore there's no energy to live type thing; the other times it was a morbid middle finger to the world, jumping out of the regenstein or off bartlett or reynolds; i didn't care if anybody else got hurt, so long as i told the world to go on and **** itself, because i was tired of being the *****.
the good thing is, those thoughts never were too serious, nor did they last longer than five minutes.
i still stayed away from staircases that led to open spaces; and stayed close to the wall when climbing the stairs up to my room, because looking down looked so far down, and so appealing, and all it would take is one instant, even if i didn't really want to do it.

	13-07-2003 19:20									#48
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It depends what kind of suicide we're talking about. I plan to commit suicide at the end of a long, full life - Hemmingway style. Altzheimers runs rampant in my family and to be honest I'd rather top myself at 67 when I'm still me than live to be 83 but dribbling and occasionally thinking I'm four years old again. I might not get around to it, I might lose my nerve, I might get run over tomorrow, but as it stands now when I start to have major health problems, rapidly decreasing mental faculties and am becoming a major burden on whatever progeny I spawn ( if any ) I hope I'll have the good grace to do myself in so I can die with a little dignity.

	13-07-2003 19:25									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Elok Umm, has anybody who responded to this thread had real, unmedicated depression?

I suffered a few serious bouts a couple of years ago but as they were all directly or indirectly linked to a girl I'm assuming it was most likely psychological rather than pathological. We don't tend to go in for psychiatric treatment in this country so naturally it was unmedicated.

Come to think of it the only people I know personally from Scotland who have seen psychiatrists ( or their lesser qualified cousin psychologists ) are those who were referred through the school due to 'behavioural problems'.

	13-07-2003 19:31									#50
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btw, adg, the reasons why people fall into depression are many. some are stupid and situational, like a breakup. others are more serious, like the loss of family. suicidal thoughts often arise because one's tired--of everything.

in my case, it's chemical. compounded with self-loathing (i have a good life. why the **** should i feel so bad? i have plenty of food, i'm in a good place, and i've got family and friends. there's no ****ing reason that i should feel so ****ing ungrateful when there are kids in the third world who don't have jack ****!), an internalized notion that it's all a matter of will, an injunction against revealing such details to even close family and friends... you can think how one quickly loses the will and energy to fight this beast.

not everyone has those conditions; some have other ones, some have fewer, some have more. in many cases, self-destruction is out of rage, either directed at one self or directed at the world and its circumstances, or exhaustion.

those suicide/homicide bombers probably can see no future for themselves; yes, they probably believe all of that bullshit that they're fed to train them, but deep down they probably have such rage at their circumstances and the world, and they're too exhausted to fight any other way. they want to die not to make a point, not to kill as many as they can, but they die because they want to go out in an attention-grabbing way as possible while giving the world and their perceived enemies the finger.

	13-07-2003 23:23									#51
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what I'm trying to figure out is if this is a modern thing.

It seems to me the more advanced our society gets, the higher our quality of life, the more depressed many people get. I don't understand why that is.

did do many people committ suicide in the 19th or 18th centuries?

	13-07-2003 23:31									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident what I'm trying to figure out is if this is a modern thing. It seems to me the more advanced our society gets, the higher our quality of life, the more depressed many people get. I don't understand why that is. did do many people committ suicide in the 19th or 18th centuries?

I thought about it too. Maybe less people killed themselves because of a fear of going to hell, or maybe it brought shame to their family so it was covered up, the death being made to look natural, or accidental.

	13-07-2003 23:37									#53
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Personally, I think people had to work much harder to survive, so they didn't have time to whine. You can clearly see that all the suiciders in the times of old are "noble" to some extent. Romeo and Julia is the first example that jumps to my mind. I can name a couple of jewish middle-ages poets from Spain, but you really don't want to know about them.

	14-07-2003 08:02									#54
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i agree with azazel. these days, we have far more time for idle hands.

with idle hands comes the devil's work...

	14-07-2003 08:11									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Because in almost every case the person is not thinking clearly. Usually they are suffering from mental illness. People don't always make the right choices for themselves. Some times they need help.

There are cultural differences.........Japanese ritual suicide for one.

	14-07-2003 08:17									#56
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quote: There are cultural differences.........Japanese ritual suicide for one.

true, although seppuku/hara kiri has fallen out of favor recently.
that was mostly a function of the notion that the individual matter little compared to the lineage and the ancestry. to bring shame to it...

while that train of thought was common in east asia, it seems as if only the japanese took it that far. the other two thought it enough to disown the person and let him/her die unwanted in the streets.

	14-07-2003 09:15									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident did do many people committ suicide in the 19th or 18th centuries?

Yes.

	14-07-2003 15:24									#58
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Depression sucks A55!! Chemical dependency to feel indifferent is WORSE! The drugs can help you 'stabilise' somewhat, but I don't like being chemically indifferent when I could be naturally indifferent (or pissed off at everything - it's pretty much the same for me).

Sorry about your Dad. But to tell people not to smoke because it makes some people sick isn't necessarily a solution to the sickness. I have sworn NEVER to quit smoking based on anyone else's say-so, simply because I enjoy so few things in this mixed-up, bizarre world of ours, that if a piece of Mir or Columbia falls out of the sky and lands on me when I'm lighting up, I shall die happy because I was doing something I enjoy. And generally, that's not something I can say for every minute of my life.

I used to pray for a massive myocardial infarction whenever I'd been at work for more than 24 hrs. Now I pray that I'm NEVER at work for more than 24 hrs. unless I really, really want to be there.

Even if the doctors tell you you're not crazy anymore, they only tell you that as long as you keep smiling and agreeing with everything they tell you. So smile and nod like a good little monkey, and then when you get out you can live your life the way YOU think it ought to be lived.

If you fvck up a suicide attempt, be prepared for your own mom to come in and say 'You couldn't even kill yourself properly?' Talk about needing therapy! Oh well, at least I don't have to talk to any more doctors or take any more steenkeeng drogs.

	14-07-2003 19:10									#59
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Ugh. What are you, a scientologist?
There is not sufficient time in my life for me to correct you as you need to be corrected. Your utter error is astonishing in its depth and complexity, like a 300-lb. tumor. I'm just gonna say that, if the "drugs" are doing their job, you will not feel indifferent, you will merely regain the ability to be happy and control your own emotions.
And cigarettes ruin your health to no intrinsic benefit. You might enjoy throwing rocks at hornets' nests too but it's still stupid. And tobacco IS a "steenkeeng drog." Get real, man.

	14-07-2003 20:14									#60
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Suicide well hmm.

There was an experiment with rats sometime when they wanted to see how long they could swim. Now they put them into the water and they swam for 3 minutes then drowned.
Another time they swam for almost 2 hours (or such) and then died.
Because the last time they were illusioned a chance for survival.